Jen:
Dan, welcome to the Mumsafe Movement Podcast. How are you?
Daniel:
I am very thrilled to be seeing you. It's been a
Jen:
It's
Daniel:
while.
Jen:
weird. It has been a while. And before we got on, I was like, I want to have all the conversations, but we need to stick to our allocated topic. I will say, though, it's very strange for me to be working at 630 in the evening.
Daniel:
Oh, is this not normal? Do you not do this for everybody?
Jen:
Not at all. No.
Daniel:
Is this a special?
Jen:
If anyone says 6.30, I'm like, no, don't do that.
Daniel:
No,
Jen:
I'm sorry. I
Daniel:
except
Jen:
say
Daniel:
for Daniel, except
Jen:
it
Daniel:
for
Jen:
for
Daniel:
my
Jen:
Dan.
Daniel:
friends in London.
Jen:
Exactly. Okay. So we've been kicking off every episode of the podcast with a word, a win and something you've been working on. And the caveat for the word is always if it's been a shit fight, it doesn't have to be a positive.
Daniel:
Well, actually, my word is just happy. I'm like happy and I'm happy to see you and I'm like happily just getting on with stuff. I've got, you know, I don't have a lot of weight on my shoulders at the moment. I'm feeling good.
Jen:
Awesome. Nice.
Daniel:
So there you go. And a win. So last week we had an amazing, like insane breakthrough week with one of my businesses, CoreApp. we have a monthly target of signing up about 800 clients and we had 500 people sign up in the first week. So
Jen:
Where?
Daniel:
that was like a win. And then in the same week I launched on threads and like 8,500 people joined my little threads
Jen:
I saw
Daniel:
thing.
Jen:
that.
Daniel:
So
Jen:
Ha ha ha.
Daniel:
I was like, oh, okay, great. This is cool.
Jen:
It's like the what's the other one that you went on fire on straight away?
Daniel:
Let's not mention clubhouse
Jen:
Clubhouse you were on that
Daniel:
Back
Jen:
all
Daniel:
in the
Jen:
the
Daniel:
day.
Jen:
time.
Daniel:
Yeah.
Jen:
Do you
Daniel:
Yes.
Jen:
still do
Daniel:
Well
Jen:
that is clubhouse still
Daniel:
No
Jen:
a thing?
Daniel:
No, it's not and I don't do it. I've got like 60,000 followers on there,
Jen:
You
Daniel:
but
Jen:
do?
Daniel:
we all got off there. So
Jen:
Okay.
Daniel:
But it was but it was great. Well, it lasted during the lockdown. It was like a way of
Jen:
Yeah,
Daniel:
just connecting with people every day Yeah, so
Jen:
yeah.
Daniel:
super great
Jen:
What do you,
Daniel:
Yeah
Jen:
what do you think that, have all those threads followers come to you from your Instagram profile?
Daniel:
Yeah, so a lot would come from Instagram, but also I got onto it on day one. I know exactly what these platforms are like on day one. So I just hammered it. I was, you know, sending, I don't know, 10 messages an hour, um, you know, because I know that the first couple of weeks are always frantic for people
Jen:
Yeah.
Daniel:
wanting to follow people and then they calm down. So, uh, essentially I, I've just jumped on game to the algorithm. And yeah, done a bit of that as well.
Jen:
So the strategy is to have you followed, you followed lots of people and will comment. I think people will be interested in this because it's so new.
Daniel:
Yeah, so commenting on conversations that are going. So if you find someone who's quite popular, like a Gary Vaynerchuk or something like that, then
Jen:
Yeah.
Daniel:
just commenting on those ones, adding a comment in. So replying to whatever the big ones say, and liking lots of people's posts, and posting a lot yourself. It's kind of like every time you post, it's a swing at the... It's kind of like in sport, it would be like, you know, kind of having a swing at the ball.
Jen:
Yep.
Daniel:
Um, not all of them are going to be home runs, but occasionally you just hit the ball and, you know, puts you in front of, you know, lots of people, um, in the early, early days when people are piling into these things, um, essentially they have all these new eyeballs and, um, they have to put stuff in front of people. So essentially if you're posting, you, you're getting you're getting in front of a lot of new people.
Jen:
Yeah. And are you just posting about business stuff or are you posting about life stuff as well?
Daniel:
Bit of both. So, you know, I like to sort of do, you know, two business posts and I'm not, to be honest, I'm not like formulaic about it, but like roughly speaking, it's about two-thirds business and about a third of just nonsense.
Jen:
life stuff. Cool.
Daniel:
Yeah
Jen:
Right. I'm gonna go give it a go.
Daniel:
Sharing a little, yeah, you know, I think of these things as like a little bit of a free database. It's like having, if you can do it in the first few weeks. and you get 10,000 followers, you've just got another channel that you
Jen:
Mm.
Daniel:
can, you know, be, be connected with people.
Jen:
Yeah, yeah, I'm interested to play more and I'm interested to have those conversations that we don't seem to be able to. I've never played on Twitter so I've never had those back and forth, you know, this is my opinion in this space that doesn't have to be curated like it is say on Instagram.
Daniel:
It can cause people a lot of stress worrying about these things. Oh, I have to be on this other platform.
Jen:
Mm.
Daniel:
I have to do this other thing and all that sort of stuff. And if it's causing you stress, here's, here's the way to reduce the stress on it. Your business really only is a balance between demand and supply. Right. So let's say you can have a hundred clients. If you've got a thousand clients who want to be, if you've got a thousand people who want to be your client, then there's nothing to worry about. There's nothing
Jen:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel:
to stress about. Um, You know, so you don't have to be on every platform. You don't have to be talking and tweeting and Instagramming and blah, blah. The only thing that really matters is that you actually genuinely do something that creates an imbalance between demand and supply. You just need to be in a position where you've got more people who know about you and want to work with you than you can actually look after. And if you get to that, you'll be profitable. You'll have a great business.
Jen:
And that's it.
Daniel:
So. Yeah, so that's the why of doing this. There's
Jen:
Yeah.
Daniel:
really only that as the why. The rest of it is just kind of like another chore to do.
Jen:
Absolutely, you're right. And I know that there will be a lot of people, especially the people listening to this, their moms, they've got fitness businesses, they've got kids and they're like, fuck another exactly what you said, another thing I now have to do. Yeah.
Daniel:
Yeah, exactly. For context, I'm building a hundred million dollar business.
Jen:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel:
So I have to get a lot of people in, you can't build a hundred million dollar business unless you've got lots and lots and lots and lots of people who are engaged with you. You got to, you got to find lots of people. So, if you don't intend to build a hundred million dollar business, then you don't have to worry about this stuff to the same degree.
Jen:
I'm gonna ask a really dumb question. What's a billion dollar business then? How many
Daniel:
Hehehe
Jen:
hundreds of millions do you have to get to get a billion dollars?
Daniel:
Well, if we want to talk about that, essentially, a billion dollar business is a business that is valued at a billion dollars, and
Jen:
Okay.
Daniel:
there's multiple ways to value a business at a billion dollars. So if you're a technology business, you probably, the smallest you'd have to be is about 50 million of revenue to maybe 250 million of revenue. So somewhere between a million a week. to five million a week will get
Jen:
Yep.
Daniel:
you to a billion dollar valuation. If you're an
Jen:
OK.
Daniel:
old school traditional business, like anything relating to food or services or any of that sort of stuff, you probably need to be at half a billion to a billion of revenue. You gotta be pretty damn big to be a billion dollar business.
Jen:
Hmm.
Daniel:
So what is a billion dollar business? It's a business that essentially can attract investment at the billion
Jen:
Yep.
Daniel:
dollar valuation. You know, we hear about these people who are billionaires. And in most cases, what has really happened is that they've sold 10% of their company for 100 million. So they've attracted investment at a billion dollar valuation or something like that.
Jen:
Okay.
Daniel:
So that is one way to be a billionaire. Another way to be a billionaire is to actually exit the whole business eventually for that sort of money.
Jen:
Yeah.
Daniel:
You know, so a lot of that is right time, right place, right acquirer, all of that sort of stuff. But you are asking the wrong person. I've not built a business to a billion. I had a
Jen:
Yes,
Daniel:
mentor who built,
Jen:
yes.
Daniel:
yeah, I had a mentor who built three multi-billion dollar businesses.
Jen:
Wow.
Daniel:
Two nights ago, I was out with a billionaire,
Jen:
Yeah.
Daniel:
having a fun time at an ABBA concert with a billionaire.
Jen:
Nice.
Daniel:
Yeah, so I know billionaires, but not,
Jen:
Not just
Daniel:
I haven't.
Jen:
yet.
Daniel:
I haven't built a business that size myself.
Jen:
We'll have to watch this space. I digressed very much. So what Dan are you working on? So we did a word, we did a win and a working on.
Daniel:
So when I'm not working
Jen:
Ah!
Daniel:
on my threads, I've got a group of companies. So the main one is Dent, which is a entrepreneur accelerator. We have
Jen:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel:
offices in Australia, UK and Canada. And we have clients in like 20 different countries around the world now. And essentially we take people through the first phase of getting from zero to a million of revenue. So we've got an accelerator that does an idea into 100 grand worth of revenue. And then we've got an accelerator that does 100 grand up to a million. And we're very focused on those couple of journeys of just
Jen:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel:
getting the business off the ground. And we're really good at it. We've done it for the last 12 years and we've just got lots and lots of people who've done it as you've been through it. So that's, that's one thing. And then the other one is a software business called score app, which
Jen:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel:
is building online quizzes and assessments for client acquisition. so that you can attract and find the right clients. And that one has really taken off. So in the last couple of years, we've attracted 4,000 companies who use it. Yeah, and it's like, it's become pretty successful little biz for a three-year-old business.
Jen:
Fantastic, well done. Tell us down a little bit before we go into the concept of being oversubscribed, which is the topic of today's podcast. Give us a little bit of the, I don't know, three to five minute backstory of you, where you've come from, who you are, and
Daniel:
Yeah,
Jen:
then what
Daniel:
so
Jen:
led you to do, yeah.
Daniel:
I live in London. I've got three kids and a lovely wife and a cat and I live in Wimbledon where the tennis is played. And as you can hear from my accent, I grew up in Australia. I'm Australian by birth, but I've been in London for about 16, 17 years now. And yeah, over the last 20 years, I've built, I think seven different companies that went zero to a million in the first 12 months. I've done three businesses that have gone over 10 million in value. So I guess you could just say I'm very much an entrepreneur. I really found my thing of launching businesses. I love launching new businesses and concepts and all that sort of stuff. I write books about it. So over the last 10 years, I've written four main books and about, I've co-authored about another three or four other books. So like how to raise entrepreneurial kids and a book called Scorecard Marketing and all these kind of like sideline little ones. Um, yeah, so, uh, that, I guess that's a bit of a quick
Jen:
Yep.
Daniel:
overview.
Jen:
What, when you, did you go, you didn't go, did you go to uni or anything like
Daniel:
I dropped
Jen:
when you were
Daniel:
out.
Jen:
younger, you dropped out? What got you from, I'm interested in this at the moment, partly because I've got a 14 year old who
Daniel:
Mm-hmm.
Jen:
doesn't want to anyway
Daniel:
Mmm!
Jen:
do all the things, but what got you from being at school to dropping out of uni to then doing what you do today?
Daniel:
So when I was at school, I read a book called the E-Myth, which was,
Jen:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel:
I must've been about 15, and it was all about entrepreneurship. And I read, then I read a book called Rich Dad Poor Dad, and then I read the BRW 200 list. So I really kind of discovered entrepreneurship through a few documents like that. And I was working at McDonald's, and I've always been a really passionate worker, like, whatever I'm doing, I do it as though it's the most important thing in the world. So like when
Jen:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel:
I was at McDonald's, I lived McDonald's. I was like, literally the, you know, I would, I still to this day can remember things like that. There are 53 nuggets in a bag that the, um, toasters are about 215 degrees temperature and that the grills are at one 18 and two 66. And I can, I just remember all this kind of stuff. I still can like, you know, remember all this production timing stuff for building. burgers
Jen:
But I guess.
Daniel:
and the sick I can remember the six steps of service on front counter. So anyway, I was just like loving McDonald's and the guy who owned our McDonald's, he kind of had a chat with me a few times at Christmas parties and whatnot. And we got talking about, like, you know, entrepreneurship and starting businesses and systems and all this sort of stuff. And I was just geeking out on that. So I wanted to go into business. I wanted to be an entrepreneur. I went and enrolled into business school and at university, I was really disappointed that none of the lecturers had ever started a business. It was
Jen:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel:
actually, it was pitched as an entrepreneurial program, it was something called enterprise management, which was meant to be running small businesses. And anyway, I started running nightclub parties and I was the nightclub party promoter. And basically at 18, I'm just filling up these parties and like, I was like Mr. Billy. big shoes because like I ran the parties and I very really quickly discovered that like running businesses is like the coolest thing ever. And everyone thinks you're amazing. So I was like, Whoa, I'm gonna do more of this. So I really over those experiences just felt like I'd found my thing pretty early. And then I basically got frustrated with university, not having real life practical experience. And I had this opportunity to drop out and go and work at a startup. So I did, I basically quit, went to a startup and that startup took off. So in two years, we went from zero to six million, went from, I was probably one of three people sitting around a table on day one. And we ended up with 60 people in inner city Melbourne offices. I was really close with the founder. So we just talked business all the time for two years and everything sales and marketing and lead generation and productization and team building and finance, all of that stuff. And he just gave me so much, like so much of a loose rope. I could just go do whatever I like really. And I did sales and I did marketing and I went and built my own little regional side of his business. And then funny thing was, is two years in, I asked him for shares in the company, picked the wrong moment to ask him. And he said, listen, if you want shares in a company, go start your own company. So I did. Yeah,
Jen:
Well
Daniel:
I quit.
Jen:
done.
Daniel:
And I copied everything I'd learned. And my first business when I was 21, 22, just rocketed away. We went from like zero to 10 million in three years. So just smashed it.
Jen:
Amazing. And you've never looked back, clearly.
Daniel:
I don't know. Yeah, I definitely don't think I would have had a sporting career. I
Jen:
Maybe,
Daniel:
could have stayed
Jen:
maybe
Daniel:
at
Jen:
not.
Daniel:
McDonald's. I could have. I could have stayed at McDonald's. I was very happy at McDonald's.
Jen:
It's interesting, my dad always, he used to work in leisure centres in the UK and he always said to me that I wasn't, I couldn't work for him until I worked in McDonald's but unlike you I was like, I'm not working in McDonald's, I'm not going to work for you, which was maybe a big mistake, I don't know, but he definitely saw the values of learning the systems and the processes and all that kind of thing.
Daniel:
It really does. It teaches you a lot. Even to this day, I always recommend if you're going to hire a manager or someone into your
Jen:
Hmm.
Daniel:
business, if you can get someone who's ex-Maccas, ex-Starbucks, or who's run a pub or a restaurant, such a great
Jen:
Yeah.
Daniel:
find. Because if you can run those businesses, you can run anything.
Jen:
Yeah. Okay. So the reason I wanted to get you to come onto the podcast is I did KPI. We had a conversation with Glenn a couple of weeks ago, which was awesome. And the next evolution of that for me on the journey with you was understanding this concept of becoming oversubscribed. And I can honestly say that I ran a fitness business for moms for seven years before I learnt about and then implemented oversubscribed. And I. came to the workshop and then I listened to the book and then I came to the workshop again and then I, and I still to today, know that at that seven year mark, it literally changed, I only ran the business for three years after that, but I earned more income with less hours and had more, what's the word, I guess confidence or stability when I moved to. the oversubscribed philosophy. And I don't think for a second that I took on everything or did all the things I could have done, but some of the concepts that I did take on were a big game changer. And
Daniel:
Mmm,
Jen:
I also know we've
Daniel:
great.
Jen:
just had this big conversation about million dollar businesses and there'll be exercise professionals sitting there going, well, I'm not earning millions of dollars. And how does talking to Dan even apply to me? But it does.
Daniel:
Yeah, well, I mean, it's the same stuff. It's the same at just different scales.
Jen:
Mm.
Daniel:
So imagine just one person who is a fitness trainer and imagine for a moment what would happen if for some random reason they had 10,000 people following them on Instagram or they sold a book and it had 10,000 copies go out and you know, or some like major publication said that they were the best or amazing. And imagine what would happen so many people who wanted to work with them, but they only had so many hours in the day, right? They could
Jen:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel:
only do like 30 or 40 hours a week worth of work. So if you kind of like break it down, if they had the ability to take on 10 clients, but a thousand clients wanted to work with them. So, you know, like let's just start with a few scenarios. Someone says, can I get a discount? Well, what's the answer? No way. Like,
Jen:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel:
of course you can't get a discount. I've got thousands of people who want to work with me. Someone says, hey look, can I jump the queue and I'm willing to pay double? Oh, okay, I guess, yeah, I guess we can. And then someone else says, can I do that too? Next thing you know, your prices have jumped up to double because there's a small group of people who are willing to pay a lot more.
Jen:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel:
So when you're oversubscribed, your prices go up, you have way more fun, you get to cherry pick the clients that you want to work with. Oh, here's the other scenario. Imagine someone's a total dick and just a horrible person to work with. And they're like, oh, I demand this and I demand that. It's like, actually, I'm gonna send you over to somebody else who I hate. So you can choose the clients that you want. You can have more fun, you can earn more money, all of this. But it all depends on being oversubscribed. Oversubscribed simply means that you've figured out how much your capacity is and you've got more people who want to work with you than you've got capacity to look after. And that is really the essence of it. That's the guts of it, right? So what I'm proposing is that you can orchestrate that, that it's not random, that it's not some like thing that happens for lucky people, but actually you can pull a few levers. And if you do pull those levers, you will actually end up oversubscribed.
Jen:
Cool, so you talked then, or I heard you talk about capacity. Let's talk in the concept of a fitness business. And I know, again, you talked about 10 people and you've got 10,000
Daniel:
Mm-hmm.
Jen:
people on your Instagram. You know, we're potentially we've got trainers that don't have 10,000 people on their Instagram.
Daniel:
show.
Jen:
Number one, how do they even work out their capacity?
Daniel:
Yeah, so the first thing is that I want you to use the word, I want people to think of the word official capacity. Because
Jen:
Official
Daniel:
official
Jen:
capacity,
Daniel:
capacity
Jen:
okay.
Daniel:
is where you actually draw a line in the sand for this year about creating your official capacity. Now, obviously, you know, if your official capacity is 60 and you know, it just happens to be 61 or 62, okay, well then fine. Or obviously, you know, if you have to juggle things around a little bit temporarily, you know, fine. but the official capacity, you need a number that is your official capacity. So if you're a fitness trainer one-to-one, you might say, I only work with people who do a minimum of three sessions a week because that's the minimum effective dose for getting a transformation. And I only work with people between these hours. So you can actually start to work out if you are like in a perfect world scenario, how many clients fit in the diary? Like simple
Jen:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel:
as that. So if you've got three sessions a week, so that's three hours, let's say, and you can do 30 hours worth of training, let's say per week, just for round numbers, there's 10 clients.
Jen:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel:
That's it. So as soon as you figure that out, you go, my official capacity is 10. I have the ability to take on 10 clients. If I don't have extra hours in the day, so there's 10.
Jen:
Cool. And if we put that into the context of say group exercise people,
Daniel:
Yep,
Jen:
so let's
Daniel:
well you might
Jen:
we...
Daniel:
say there's 10 classes and there's 10 people per class, so official capacity is 100.
Jen:
Cool. I like that. We use the phrase opportunities to exercise when we're talking to trainers about the spots they've got in their business. What then, how then? Cause I get a lot of trainers say to me, what should I charge? And the way I go about that is to go, well, what do you want to earn? What's your capacity? Let's work back from that and do all the numbers at every stage to go, well, if you only charge $20 an hour and you've only got a capacity of 40 sessions per week or 40 opportunities to exercise or... per week,
Daniel:
Mm-hmm.
Jen:
then if you're only charging $20, you're not gonna earn a whole lot of money. So let's reverse engineer that and decide how much you want to earn. What's your take on that? And also, I guess, bringing supply and demand into that.
Daniel:
Well, the first thing to know is that additional supply lowers price, right?
Jen:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel:
And constrained supply pushes prices up. So a lot of people think that if they supply more, they'll earn more money. But in actual fact, if you supply too much, you'll actually earn less money. So if you make something too freely available, it loses its value. And if you make something scarce or difficult to obtain, then it increases its value. We need to almost imagine a pyramid and in that pyramid there are people who are willing to pay certain amounts, but they have different standards around what they'll pay. So there's the base of the pyramid. Like, so for example, if you took the vast majority of people and said, can you afford $10 a session to go and do some exercise? Most people say, yeah, I can afford it. And then you might say, well, what would you be willing to, you know, what do you need in order for that to work for you? Oh, I need it to be close to my house, or I need it to be this, right? So they've got their criteria, and that's the big base of the pyramid. There's a very narrow point of the pyramid, right up the top, where you say, what can you afford? And they say, really, money's not an issue, money's not the problem. What are your standards? What do you want? Well, I want this, and this. I'm looking for this result. I'm looking for this particular thing. I want some dedication around that particular result. So there's different... kind of like layers of this pyramid and what they will pay and what they're worth. Now, obviously there's less people at the top
Jen:
Hmm.
Daniel:
who are willing to pay extraordinary amounts of money. But the one thing you should know about the top of the pyramid is that not many people go after them and not many people are willing to meet their standards. Not many people ask them the questions around, what is it you would need in order to pay a thousand bucks a week or whatever it is. So there's... They often get ignored and there's only this kind of very small elite group who look after them. So we have to figure out where on the pyramid do we want to play? Do we want to go and try and attract lots and lots of people, you know, in the volume game? Do you want to have a few clients who are high payers? Right. So somewhere along those lines. But the trade off is that if you go up to the top of the pyramid, you're going to need to build quite a lot of a following just simply so you can get to the top of the pyramid. So.
Jen:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel:
Like if you need 100 clients, you're gonna need thousands of people who know of you in order to get those top clients. So if you take someone like Beyonce, Beyonce gets paid 10 million to 20 million to do a private concert. So there's only a very small number of people in the world who can afford to pay 10 million for their birthday to have Beyonce come and play. So she has to have a very, very large pyramid of people who know who she
Jen:
Hmm.
Daniel:
is and what she does in order for it to make sense for a very small number of people to do that. So you've got to kind of play that you're trying to balance this game of value and volume.
Jen:
And can you play at different parts of the pyramid at more than one level in your business or?
Daniel:
You totally can and it tends to be that there are things that are harder and things that are easier. So here's, I think it's very hard to play at the bottom of the pyramid. It's very saturated.
Jen:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel:
You need such volumes of people paying you 10 bucks and $10 a session or $10 a thing. You're never going to get successful on the bottom of the pyramid because small businesses just can't do the scale. They cannot. you look at the businesses that do serve the bottom of the pyramid, they are massive businesses, right?
Jen:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel:
They need huge amounts of scale. Like you have to have McDonald's everywhere to kind of, you know, make money off cheap burgers. So, um, uh, whereas a Michelin star restaurant only needs one, one desirable location in the right place. And it can make a lot of money, you know, with just one location. So, um, so, I don't think that the two places that I think are very interesting is niche markets and luxury market. So a
Jen:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel:
niche market, I have two rules with niche markets. A niche market is that their number one rule number one is that they're in the top 20% income earners. So they have to you've got to figure out what is the top 20% in your country or your region. And you've got to figure out okay, who's in the top 20%. So here in the UK, I think it's about 60,000 pounds a year, or in London it'd be about 60,000 pounds a year, puts you in the top 20%. So you need to be serving people who are earning over 60,000 pounds per year. In Australia it's probably, I don't know, 100 grand, maybe 120,000 a year. I don't know, maybe I'm out of touch with it.
Jen:
Yeah.
Daniel:
But you've got to figure out what is the top 20% income. And then within that, you've got to find people who are really passionate about solving a particular problem. like they're super passionate and they're passionate enough that they would turn up to an evening event or they would passionate enough that they would join a WhatsApp group or passionate enough that they would request more information. So they're passionate about solving a problem. There's a problem that they wanna solve and they're really, they've got some fire for solving that. So you're looking at people in the top 20% and they're passionate about solving a problem. So like for you, it could be, you know, corporate moms who want to get their fitness back after baby. So
Jen:
Yep.
Daniel:
that is very clearly meets all of those criteria.
Jen:
Absolutely. When you were talking, I was like the mum, we are sitting in a niche market. So trainers that work with mums. And I would love to highlight to trainers that do work with mums, that it is never a race to the bottom. Like you are not competing with the CrossFit down the road or the bootcamp at the beach or anything like that. Because just by definition of being further educated and working with mums, you are playing above.
Daniel:
Yeah, this is the thing because the customer is always thinking about solving their own problem. That's what the customer thinks about. They don't really care about what you do. They care about is this the fastest way to solve my problem? Customers
Jen:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel:
are customers are looking for only one thing. They're looking for a path of least resistance. So path of least resistance means that they want to go from where they are now to where they want to be as fast and as cheap as possible as effective as possible in a way that meets their criteria. That's it. So the path of least resistance is the only thing. So the mum is not looking for CrossFit. She's not looking for beach. She's not looking for volleyball. She's not looking for tennis. She's not looking for any of those things. She's looking for a path of least resistance to what she wants. And provided you are the one who can be the path of least resistance for her to solve her problem and get what she wants, then you're the one that you'll buy from. So that's the niche market. The other one is luxury. Now luxury market is people who earn in the top 1%. So in the UK, I think you've got to be earning more than 165,000 pounds, but on average in the UK, a top 1% earns over 350,000 pounds. So you're looking at people who are earning top money. And there's a few things that luxury market wants. They want exclusivity. They don't want you to be working with anyone else because they want you to be dedicated to just them and their needs and they want you to totally understand what they need. You know, if someone is a lawyer who bills out at a couple of thousand pounds per day or more, they want you to understand that they're not going to cross town for you. They're not going to go, you know, they're not going to take an hour this way or that way. They need it to be super close to where they work and all of these things. So they need you to totally understand their world and they need you to be, they're willing to pay for it. They're totally willing to pay for it. But they just need you to need to know that you're exclusive, that you don't work with other people who are not like them. They also need to have shortcuts that allow them to know that you're the best. So because their time is so valuable, they're looking for shortcuts. And the shortcuts they typically look for is pedigree. So like, who else do you work with? How long have you been around? Have you won awards? They look for things like, like a good shortcut is are you super expensive? Because that immediately says exclusive and it says value, like delivering high value and it says that you are confident that you can get the result. So there's a lot of shortcuts in just having high prices in terms of that. And they look for things like prestigious awards and speaking at prestigious events. And just the markers of like other people respect you in the industry, like other people have said, you're the best of the best. Having written a book, for example, if you've got a best
Jen:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel:
selling book, all of that is the marker of like, okay, you must be the best. And that's what they're looking for, exclusivity and like the best premium value. So either picking a niche or a luxury end of the market tends to be a really smart place to start.
Jen:
Cool. Okay, so what I heard you say before was we can orchestrate the marketplace. And if I think about exercise professionals that maybe, maybe they're just launching their business in the mum market, or they've been, they're the typical fitness business that's been running 20 classes a week to 10 mums per class. They've got three mums in each class. And really they could just run two classes with, with all the mums in those two classes. I think I've just answered the question. How would you say they best take stock of what they're doing right now and then fix what they're doing and create an energy in the marketplace where supply is less than demand?
Daniel:
So we start with official capacity and we start to tell people that we have an official capacity. So we're transparent about it. We say, I can only take on 10 clients or I can only take on 100 people in my classes. So that's one of the things that we do. We start to seed the market that the market understands, the people who buy from you understand that you can't take everyone. Because the
Jen:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel:
default, when you're buying something, you don't think about what the capacity of the business is. You just simply think, oh, well, I want it so they must supply it for me. Whereas... a business that says, just letting you know, at any given time I can only take on 10 clients, these are my rules that I work with. You've gotta be doing three sessions a week, you've gotta stick to the rules that I give you, like you've gotta lay out those terms because you've got limited supply. So first thing is just talking about the fact that you have limited supply. The second thing is you need to learn how to do something called marketing for signals, not sales. And that is one of the first things you want to want to do so marketing for signals not sales Means that you don't tell people here's how you buy from me you tell people here's how you signal that you're interested So signaling that you're interested means joining a waiting list It means Engaging in a campaign where other people can see you're engaging in that campaign attending an event Filling in an online scorecard or a survey or you know or an assessment joining a WhatsApp group, let's say. So all of these things are signals before the sale. So you wanna be good at marketing for signals, not sales. Now, one of the key things you wanna do is try and get 50 to 100 signals for every client that you want. I know that sounds really freaky,
Jen:
That sounds
Daniel:
but
Jen:
a lot,
Daniel:
like,
Jen:
right?
Daniel:
yeah. And that would be really soft signals. If they're really warm signals, it could be as few as 10 to one.
Jen:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel:
So for example, like, If you were to say, I'm going to take on 10 clients, and you said, in order to be a client, I want you to do the first thing, which is the 10 day challenge, which is to join my WhatsApp group, and I'm going to give you 10 challenges in 10 days. If you had, if you wanted 10 clients, and you had, call it 200 people, 300 people in the WhatsApp group, you are building so much demand and supply tension. They can all see that there's 300 people in the WhatsApp.
Jen:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel:
So they're all sitting there going, oh, how do I become one of these 10 clients? I don't want to miss out. So you've built demand and supply tension into the model.
Jen:
Yeah, do you think that a WhatsApp group, so a lot of people use Facebook groups, do you think WhatsApp worked better for you if we're thinking on a granular level?
Daniel:
Um, to be fair, WhatsApp, WhatsApp does actually work better because it's always with you. A lot of people don't have the Facebook app on their
Jen:
Mmm.
Daniel:
phone. And when they do have the Facebook app on their phone, it's, um, it's a bit of a mess, like there's so much stuff going on there.
Jen:
Yeah.
Daniel:
Uh, WhatsApp tends to be, you know, it's with everyone. It's on everyone's phone. Um, and also it has a lot of tools that most people don't realize it has community tools and it has educational. group tools and you can put videos in there and you can do all sorts of stuff in there. But it tends to alert people. Most people have their WhatsApp alerts. You know, it's on their home screen. It's like one
Jen:
Yeah.
Daniel:
of the first apps they check. So yeah, I would say a WhatsApp group is a pretty good way. Surveys, scorecards, assessments, those are all great. And little mini events. If someone's willing to turn up to a 10, like a 30 to 60 minute intro event on Zoom, that's a very hot signal of interest. So you probably only need 10 to one with a Zoom call. So let's say
Jen:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel:
you run a Zoom call called Body Beyond Baby and an introduction to post-baby fitness and health. So you then say it's gonna be a 45 minute Zoom call with 15 minutes of Q&A. And if someone turns up to that and they log in and they're there, if you've got 100 people, you will definitely get 10 clients.
Jen:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel:
out of that. And the reason you'll get 10 as well, 10 really good ones, is that there's something happening called transparency of demand and supply. Transparency of demand and supply is where people can see there's one of you with 10 spots and there's a hundred of us who want it. All right, so that is that moment. It's like when you go to the Apple store and people are camped out at the front waiting for the new Apple product. And
Jen:
Yep.
Daniel:
you know that you're not gonna be able to get a discount.
Jen:
Absolutely. I think that there's something that happens, especially, I mean, I play in the trainer space. So obviously in the trainer space that the scarcity just somehow takes control before the oversubscribed does. So especially in today's kind of economy where people are buying into, you know, refreshing your book, like whether it's industry trends, economy trends, market trends, what... What do you have to say to that? Because it's scary for a small business, right? That
Daniel:
Yeah,
Jen:
feels
Daniel:
I would say,
Jen:
like they need it.
Daniel:
I would say it's, it's the fact that people of all industries don't want to jump through these hoops, they just want to have a business where like we all have a juvenile infantile view that if I just do a good job, I should get paid. All right.
Jen:
Hmm.
Daniel:
That's what we want. We it's like, it's kind of like in dating. It's like if I'm just a nice person, if I'm a good person, someone will come along and they'll want to marry me, right. It's like No, I'm sorry. That's not how dating works. You're going to have to get out there and date some people and
Jen:
Yeah.
Daniel:
all that sort of stuff. Right. So there's this thing of like people don't want to jump through the hoops. They don't want to do the thing that works. I, I operate in all I have clients who operate in the most unbelievably saturated markets. But, you know, when you do the game, if you play the game of getting people, you know, getting people excited and getting oversubscribed. You can, you know, you can, there are restaurants. In fact, I'm about to go to one today. In London, there's this thing called Pavilion Road, Pavilion Street in Sloan Square. And there's all these restaurants down the road, but there's one restaurant called Grainger & Co. that always has a massive lineup out the front.
Jen:
Hmm.
Daniel:
And it's crazy because you can literally walk one minute across and there's another restaurant. And then there's all these other, and they're all pretty good restaurants. But Grainger has figured out how to get people lining up. So, you know, and that's the definition of a saturated market where there's all these alternatives sitting around, you know, but Granger knows how to get people to jump through the hoops and to line up and line up and line up to do the thing. So there are fitness trainers right now in London who charge minimum £5,000 for body transformation. And, you know, in Australia, it's like $10,000 for body transformation.
Jen:
Mm.
Daniel:
And they've got a waiting list. So they're operating in the exact same saturated market that everyone else is. They've just gone through and done the thing. So if you're gonna sit there and say, I just wanna do a good job, and I just wanna be a nice person, I just wanna be a friendly trainer, and I just wanna have the qualification and the certification, and then that's enough. It's just not how the world works. You have to jump through a few of these hoops. You've gotta do an intro event. You've gotta do a WhatsApp group. You've gotta do a survey. You've gotta do something that gets people to signal their interest. Now let me just quickly backtrack around why signaling is so important.
Jen:
Mm.
Daniel:
In order for me to buy from you, I have to feel a hundred percent ready. Right. In order for me to signal my interest, I only need to be 10%. So if I, if
Jen:
Okay.
Daniel:
I was 10% sure that I was interested in working with you, right. Then I would signal, I'd say, okay, I'll, I'll like book into the event or I'll join the WhatsApp group or I'll fill in the form, right? It's no big deal. There's no money. It's quick. Of course I'll do that, right? So I'm only 10% interested, but I'll do it. But if you said, join this thing and pay and commit, oh, well, I'm only 10%, I definitely won't do that. So the reason we build signals is because we have to get people to take that first little step to reveal themselves. And then we can warm people up with education and entertainment. We can show them examples, we can heighten their experience, we can show them before and afters, we can... tell them what's involved, all that sort of stuff. We can really get them to feel that this is a path of least resistance. It's gonna be less effort than they thought. It's gonna be less, you know, just difficulty than they thought. And then they're like going, oh wow, I'm okay. I'm now 50% sure, I'm 60% sure, I'm 70% sure. And then they start seeing each other and they're like, oh, wait a second, I'm gonna miss out. Like,
Jen:
Hmm.
Daniel:
this sucks. There's only 10 spots and there's 75 people here. I don't wanna miss out. I wanna be
Jen:
Yep.
Daniel:
one of the ones who's chosen. So it's that game of getting people to just take a little step forward, little step forward, little step forward. And then if you can do that, then you get the avalanche of clients. And that's also where you get the top of the pyramid who are happy to pay a lot of money.
Jen:
Yep. And what kind of runway in your experience down to people need to start from where they're at and then build up those signalling events to get to the sale?
Daniel:
Well, typically if you're thinking three months out, that's a good start. So
Jen:
Okay.
Daniel:
I like to, I like with my businesses, I like to build 12 month worth of campaign. So I'm
Jen:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel:
looking at 12 month, 12 month campaigns where what I do with my businesses is I will always have what we call a perfect repeatable week. And that is every single week we do something that is easily repeatable that helps me to get oversubscribed. And then every quarter we're gonna do a little spotlight campaign, something special that is exciting. and people are gonna come along and do that. And then every year we're gonna have one big message that we keep talking about on all the social media channels. So I've got a big message, I've got quarterly spotlights, and I've got a weekly perfect repeatable week. And I will plan that out for a year in advance, sometimes even more, one to two years in advance, where we say this is year one's campaign, this is year two campaign. This is our perfect repeatable week. So like for example, launching a software business, One of the perfect repeatable weak things is we have a weekly introduction where we do an introduction to lead generation and how to generate leads online. And people, sometimes 30, sometimes 50, sometimes 100 people join it, and about a third of people will end up being customers. And we just run it every week, right? And it's constantly going. We have these online trainings that we do and we promote those every week. So we've got these weekly campaigns.
Jen:
And your weekly campaigns, are they being filled via Facebook advertising or what's
Daniel:
Yeah,
Jen:
their?
Daniel:
we do ads, we do joint ventures,
Jen:
Yeah.
Daniel:
we do big influencers who promote all of that. But yeah, a
Jen:
Yeah,
Daniel:
lot of
Jen:
okay.
Daniel:
ads, bit of SEO.
Jen:
Yeah. And you're planning your, so you've got your weekly campaigns, repeatable weekly campaigns, you've got your quarterly spotlight. What's an example of a quarterly spotlight campaign?
Daniel:
I like three types of things for spotlights. Spotlight number one is an interesting person. So let's say, for example, let's say body beyond maybe. If we were to say this quarter, we have Lisa Curry from, you know, like Olympic athlete and all this, and she's also a mom, and she's gonna be giving a little special talk, you know, on Zoom or live. but that would be an amazing example of like, you know, just it's a one-off special thing.
Jen:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel:
Now, everyone who's on your database is like, oh, wow, that's cool, I'll book in for that. So it re-energizes your whole database. And you
Jen:
Yep.
Daniel:
only have to do that like every three times a year, four times a year is the perfect amount. So that's a person or a new product. So you could say, This quarter, we want to introduce you to Aura Rings, and we want to show you how Aura Rings work, and we want to do a partnership where we literally talk you through how this sleep tracking thing is really good for you. Come along and do a special training on this thing, right? So it's a new product idea or a new product package, or it's a new exploration into a product. Or the third one is an experience. So this week, we're taking everyone to a beach, a beach-side special morning. We're doing a special morning breakfast run talk thing. It's an experience. It's a sunrise thing or it's a, you know, drop the kids at school then come down the beach thing, whatever it is, but it's a special experience. So a person, a product or an experience is a really good thing to do once a quarter.
Jen:
Cool, and then you've got your big picture annual campaigns.
Daniel:
Yeah, so the Big Picture annual campaign is something that what we call internally as it builds a buying belief.
Jen:
Okay.
Daniel:
So we deliberately create a new buying belief that we want to have people get excited about. So for my software company ScoreApp, we wanted to create the buying belief, everything is downstream from lead generation.
Jen:
I've
Daniel:
So,
Jen:
heard you say
Daniel:
uh-huh.
Jen:
that lots of times.
Daniel:
Yeah, I've put videos out about it. I've done
Jen:
Yes
Daniel:
podcasts
Jen:
you have.
Daniel:
about it. Right. So this was not accidental. This was
Jen:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel:
a deliberate decision a year ago that we're going to build a buying belief called everything's downstream from lead generation. That it doesn't matter how great your product is. If you can't generate leads, then your product will, you know, be, you know, a flop, so
Jen:
Yeah.
Daniel:
we want you to be able to generate a lot of leads for your product or service. So, um, essentially I've built this whole campaign. big message for over a year about everything's downstream from lead generation. If you take a look at a product like Fitbit, they want you to really believe that 10,000 steps a day is the key to greater health and weight loss. So as soon as you believe 10,000 steps a day, then you go, okay, I need a Fitbit so I can track my 10,000 steps per day. So essentially a buying belief is an idea that if I believe this, then I want this.
Jen:
Yeah, okay. So I'm trying to think of what it could be. I didn't realize Fitbit created the 10,000 steps a day. Anyway, for a exercise professional that works with mums, would it be something like, if you don't, don't want to put a negative spin on it, it's something you're
Daniel:
You
Jen:
out
Daniel:
could
Jen:
returning
Daniel:
have, you
Jen:
to
Daniel:
could,
Jen:
exercise safely
Daniel:
yeah,
Jen:
or?
Daniel:
you could have, yeah, you could say, you could say.
Jen:
If you don't work with a mom safe trainer or you need to work with a mom
Daniel:
No,
Jen:
safe trainer in
Daniel:
no,
Jen:
order to know. Okay, cool.
Daniel:
it can't be literal. It can't be literal.
Jen:
Got it.
Daniel:
It can't be
Jen:
Okay.
Daniel:
like it can't be by Fitbit. It
Jen:
Yes,
Daniel:
can't be
Jen:
got
Daniel:
it
Jen:
it.
Daniel:
can't be get score up. It needs to be something along the lines of you need to build from the inside out.
Jen:
Rebuild from
Daniel:
Rebuild
Jen:
the inside out.
Daniel:
rebuild
Jen:
Okay.
Daniel:
from the inside out. I've heard you say
Jen:
Yeah.
Daniel:
that. So if you were to go for a year on rebuild from the inside out, what does that mean? What it means rebuild confidence, it means rebuild the core.
Jen:
Yeah.
Daniel:
means real rebuild, right? So it's like rebuild from the inside out becomes the campaign. And as soon as people get excited about rebuild from the inside out, then it's like, ah, I like, I don't wanna work with anyone else unless they understand the philosophy of rebuild from the inside out.
Jen:
Got it. Okay. Thank you. Nice.
Daniel:
So it's definitely
Jen:
It's not,
Daniel:
not
Jen:
come
Daniel:
the product.
Jen:
work with us. Yeah, totally
Daniel:
Yeah.
Jen:
off track. Cool. Dan, I did have another look. So I was looking at your book earlier on this week and you talk about staged releases. Once you've got that wait list and we're now wanting to, we've got people that have signaled, we want them to buy. Tell us about stage releases and how that works in order to fuel that demand.
Daniel:
Well, remember that the price and the value, they happen because there's that tension, there's that like, oh, I might miss out.
Jen:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel:
So let's say you've got 10 spots available, 10 client spots available, you can take on 10 clients. If you go out and say, I've got 10 client spots available, you'll probably get people go, oh, okay, there's plenty of room. depending on what they've seen activity wise. But if you said, I've just had, I have 10 spots available, I've actually just got a spot available that's become available. If you're interested in working with me, fill in this online survey and I'll be selecting who I work with. Then people are thinking, oh, there's one spot available and I want that one spot. And even if four people fill it in, you can say, look, I had four people fill in the application for the one spot and there's only one spot. I'm just curious, why should I pick you?
Jen:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel:
Now they're like, oh, okay, that flips it around a little bit. Well, I'm really committed. I wanna work with someone who's super committed. I wanna work with someone who's no joke. They wanna get the result. Tell me what makes you that person. And if not, that's fine, I've got three others. And then people are like, oh, well, I'm this, this. I did this, and I'm super pumped, and here's what it would mean to me to get the result. Okay, great. Well, I can't promise you anything because I'm gonna interview the other three, but I'll come back to you if you're the one. All right, so that would be releasing one unit of capacity at a time. And then like a couple of weeks later, you might say, good news, I've actually got another two spots available. I know that I couldn't get you on last time, but I will make you make something available to you now.
Jen:
Okay,
Daniel:
So
Jen:
so.
Daniel:
it's just not releasing all the capacity all at once.
Jen:
So you, but you wouldn't say that and then take on all four at the same time.
Daniel:
Um, you don't want to do anything that says that it's a gimmick or that it's,
Jen:
Yes.
Daniel:
um, you know, or that you're not trustworthy. So if you're going to take on one at a time, take on one at a time. But what you might do is you might say, um, I can't get you started this month, but I do have someone starting, um, uh, I do have a spot available next month. Would you be happy to start next month?
Jen:
Yeah.
Daniel:
Um, and then that can work as well. Yeah.
Jen:
Yeah, okay, cool.
Daniel:
There needs
Jen:
All
Daniel:
to be
Jen:
right.
Daniel:
some, needs to be some little juggling there.
Jen:
Yeah, I think it's like, it's, we've got a mum inside, or she's a mum, she's a trainer inside of our membership at the moment. And she's been, I've watched her for months, just struggling and struggling and struggling and getting out there and doing all the become locally famous, become a key person of influence, like in her area space. And I saw a message from her early on, and she's gone from literally having maybe two or three clients to understanding that her capacity is, I think it's. 72 or 73 and she's now got 50 people signed up and she's got like 25 spots available and I just like listening to what you're saying and watching what she's done and having experienced it myself it's that having I guess I don't want to say the balls because it makes it very male-centric but having the guts to
Daniel:
the
Jen:
stick with the process and really Yeah, just stick with the process and then watch the outcome happen without throwing the towel in halfway through and making it easier somehow, which doesn't make it easier in the long run.
Daniel:
It's really interesting, big businesses fail at this as well. So when Apple released the Apple Watch, like a year earlier, Samsung had released the Samsung Watch.
Jen:
Hmm.
Daniel:
And Samsung were deliberately trying to beat Apple with the watch. And what they did is they just released it onto the marketplace and said, haha, the Samsung Watch is now available. Everyone can get one. And no one bought it, no one was interested. They had to return three million units or something like this. Apple was so clever and they're doing it now with the goggles. What they did is they said, we're going to be releasing an Apple Watch. You can fill in, if you want to get some more information, you can register and we'll send you the information. Then they said the Apple Watch is available to have a look at in the store, but you can't try it on. It's just, we're going to put a few on display. And then they said, we're going to do a video about it and you can watch the video. And then they said, we're going to put it in the store. You can try it on, but you're not allowed to buy it. And then when they finally said the Apple watch is now available everyone was like, oh I've warmed up to the idea I'm now I've jumped through the hoops and I'm ready to go. So Samsung by just throwing it out there and making it available flopped Apple warmed people up now watch what they do with these goggles, right? so they're gonna tell you that the goggles are coming and then they're gonna get some famous people to say that the goggles are amazing and then they're gonna put some goggles in the store and you're not gonna be able to look at you're going to be able to look at them, but not buy them. And then you're going to be able to try them on but not buy them. And then they're going to have only a few million units available worldwide. And everyone's going to be like it, then they become a status symbol if you've got them, right, you're one of the first to have these things. So they're going to just jump make you jump through these hoops. Everyone says, Oh, I just don't want to do that. Unfortunately, that's how
Jen:
Hmm.
Daniel:
markets work. They warm up to stuff. You know, I said I used to run these nightclub parties,
Jen:
Yeah.
Daniel:
right? when I was at university. There was this cheeky guy who would turn up to the Nike club parties and he would have, he would have a sailor's hat, a captain's hat, and he would have about 15 sailor hats that he would put on all the girls' heads, right? So all these girls are wearing the sailor hats. And then he's got the captain's hat and he's dancing up on the stage and he's doing the thing and there's all these... like girls who each have like sailors hat on and all this sort of stuff. But the funniest thing is we just saw this over and over and over and over again, he would always end up with like an amazing girl that he was
Jen:
Wow.
Daniel:
he had,
Jen:
Ha ha ha.
Daniel:
right. But the reason for this is he went through this silly game of getting 15 girls to wear the sailor hat. And then they could all see each other, they could all see that there were 15 other 14 other girls wearing the sailor hat. And then there was just one captain's hat and like one of the girls would go it's gonna be me who goes
Jen:
Oh my goodness.
Daniel:
So this is the stupidest thing, right? But it totally predictably just worked and worked and worked because it created a silly game and then
Jen:
Yep.
Daniel:
it created demand and supply tension. And, you know, this guy would never have been able to do this without the silly captain's hat, sailor hat game.
Jen:
That's hilarious. That is hilarious. Nice. As we start to wrap up Dan, can you have a think about, you've given us some really, really great examples, but are there any other examples you can think of businesses that you've worked with or even solo business owners that have been struggling, potentially struggling, and then they've implemented the oversubscribed philosophy and it's literally changed the way that they go about doing business. Let's keep it in the service-based space, which I'm,
Daniel:
Yeah,
Jen:
yeah.
Daniel:
look, some examples that I can definitely think of is in the fitness trainer space, there's been fitness trainers that I've worked with, where we've gotten really, really clear about the fact that nobody wants a fitness trainer, they want a result.
Jen:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel:
And that your job is to talk to people about the fact that you can help them with the result. So for example, there was one fitness trainer that I worked with who was just selling fitness training hours. know, 50 quid an hour type thing. And what he ended up doing was creating a body transformation package. And the body transformation package was we're going to work together and get a body transformation. But it doesn't just include hours, it includes all sorts of things. So it includes, you know, a diet plan and includes, like boxing training with a boxing specialist and it included cycling training with the cycling specialist and weights training and It was like all these different things that were gonna happen over the next 12 weeks and we're gonna do this 12 week, you know intense challenge and I'm gonna bring I'm gonna bring the cavalry Onto the battlefield to get this thing done and it was absolutely incredible one of the things that was really interested in that is that he created a some terminology that was his terminology called the button, the oven and the bricks. And the button was, he created this visual called the reshape button. And it was basically your body doesn't wanna reshape, it just wants to be the shape that it is. But only if you touch the reshape button, will it reshape. And the reshape button is that I almost died and I'm not fit enough to survive, right? So he said, your body needs to know that, oh my goodness, I almost dropped those weights on my chest, I need to get a bigger chest.
Jen:
Oh
Daniel:
Oh
Jen:
my
Daniel:
my
Jen:
gosh.
Daniel:
goodness, right? So his whole thing was like, was telling these guys, well, you've got to hit the button. You've got to get to a point where you can't just simply reshape doing a nice, comfortable little exercise. You've got to reshape because your body goes, oh, I need to reshape. I've got to push myself to my limit. He said, the good news is we can do it in about 20 minutes. Like we can hit the reshape button in 20 minutes. So... he's basically created these super intense little workouts. And his clients absolutely loved the fact that they could do an intense 20 minute workout rather than an hour. So in his mind, he had originally thought, oh, the longer the better, like my clients want longer workouts because they're paying me by the hour. So if I can give them more time, they'll be happier. It turns out that actually his clients were so much happier with punchy short reshape workouts. where you hit the button and go home. We'll go back to work. So yeah, and his thing about the oven is every day you've got to turn on the oven or else the bricks don't cook. And the oven was that you have to do something that just simply puts the tiniest little bit of sweat on the brow, that's it. As soon as
Jen:
Okay.
Daniel:
you feel that you're, as soon as you get the slightest little amount of sweat on the brow, the oven is on and now you'll cook the bricks. And the bricks is you have to build these bricks that will reshape your body part protein, part carbohydrate, part nutrient.
Jen:
Yep.
Daniel:
And you've got to build a brick every day. Every day you've got to eat enough stuff that you will build that brick and turn on the oven to cook the brick and it goes into the body. So turning on the oven just meant having enough of, like even just going for a walk, but just getting a lightest sweat on the brow and you're done. Hitting the reshape button is like almost dying.
Jen:
So you gotta work a little bit, but almost die at the same time.
Daniel:
Well,
Jen:
And then
Daniel:
yeah,
Jen:
do...
Daniel:
his rules were you had to hit the reshape button three times a week. You
Jen:
Okay.
Daniel:
had to turn on the oven every day. And
Jen:
Yep.
Daniel:
hitting the reshape button was also turning on the oven. So you don't have to do both in one day. But on days that you're not hitting the reshape button, you got to at least turn on the oven
Jen:
and he had limited
Daniel:
to cook the
Jen:
capacity
Daniel:
bricks.
Jen:
for the people that he could work with in order
Daniel:
Yeah,
Jen:
to.
Daniel:
yeah, totally. So he built this whole little program and went from went from like 50 pounds an hour working from like six in the morning till nine o'clock at night to just doing everything on his own terms, tripling his income, working way less. So he went from like 50 grand a year to 150,000 a year pounds.
Jen:
Yeah.
Daniel:
And having way more fun, everyone played by his rules. And he was able to outsource a bunch of stuff. like, you know, one of his reshape workshop workouts was boxing in a ring with a boxing trainer and doing an actual like, three rounds of three minutes type thing. And yeah, like he made it fun and created it as an experience. And then when he when he sold it, people were lining up for it. And like pre, it was pre registration early first, he had a launch event for all of that sort of stuff.
Jen:
Yeah, I love that you talked about creating a formula and the way that he does, he did things as well because it really does hook in the conversation that we've already had. So if people are listening and they're like, we've gone from oversubscribed to, you know, the way that they move them from where they are right now to where they want to get to, then go back and listen to the episode that we did previously on becoming a key person and with once
Daniel:
Keep
Jen:
being
Daniel:
it.
Jen:
known for what you're doing. Absolutely. Dan to wrap us up. If people want to find out. more about you and hang out with you on threads or wherever you're hanging out at the moment. What do they do? Where do they go? Tell us more.
Daniel:
So all the favorite socials, so Twitter and threads and Instagram and Facebook and LinkedIn. I'm quite active on LinkedIn actually at the moment.
Jen:
Okay.
Daniel:
So Instagram will probably be popular with your people. I'm on Insta. And also check out ScoreApp. So ScoreApp
Jen:
I was just
Daniel:
is
Jen:
about to say
Daniel:
at the,
Jen:
that. Tell us a little bit
Daniel:
yeah.
Jen:
more about it.
Daniel:
We have, well, we have so many, we have so many fitness trainers who use ScoreApp. Essentially,
Jen:
Mmm.
Daniel:
essentially, if you think about a doctor, How does a doctor make sales, right? I know that we don't think of doctors making sales, but how do doctors make sales? Well, the first thing they do is prescribe. They diagnose and
Jen:
Mm-hmm.
Daniel:
they actually like, you know, put you through an assessment of some sort. So they do a blood test or an X-ray or something like that to do some form of assessment. And then once they've done the assessment, then they describe what it is they want you to do next. So it's a really, really powerful way to make sales as a fitness trainer is to do an assessment and then a prescription. So what we have is an online assessment builder. So you can build your own assessments. So really simple is like, are you ready to get a body transformation after a baby? Are you ready to get back in your, are you ready to get back in shape? Are you ready to, are you ready to have more confidence? Are you ready to increase your energy levels? So you pick, you pick an issue that people want to improve and you basically build a little assessment of where are you now and how could you improve? Typically it's 15 questions that people answer and if they answer those 15 questions, they get a score and the score tells people like, you're a 45% out of 100% and these are the top things you should do to improve. And it is the best precursor to a sale. Rather than selling the outcome, imagine you walk into a doctor. and you sit down and they're like, okay, what's your name? Oh, Jen, okay. Jen, I think you need antibiotics. And you're like, I haven't even told you what's wrong with me.
Jen:
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe
Daniel:
Right? It's like, that's so weird. But to a degree, it's the same when someone sits down with a trainer and they go, well, I think you need diet and exercise improvement. It's like, well, of course we already know that, but going through the assessment process makes it feel. like a much better process to buy. So having these online assessments are a really amazing way to generate leads, to warm people up, to get them ready to convert, to give you the data that you need to talk about in order to make the sale. Because a lot of the times, people will tell an assessment things that they would never tell you. So if you
Jen:
Yeah.
Daniel:
ask them the questions, if you sat down and asked them 15 questions, they might be on the back foot or they might not tell you the honest answer. If they do it as an online assessment and it's just a click through on the website, they give you all that information And then when you have it in front of you say hey look I asked you a question about How many times per week do you feel total body confidence and you said zero? Like I just want to check in with you. What is that? You know, what's that doing for you? What's that? You know, was there ever a time that you did have some body confidence? It's like yeah, actually I used to have body confidence back in back in this particular time, okay,
Jen:
Yeah.
Daniel:
and how does it feel the difference between then and now? Well, it feels like, you know, I really don't like it. Okay, so I'm guessing what you want is to have at least three or four moments of body confidence per week if as a goal. Yeah, I'd really love that. Okay, great. Well, then let's build that into our program. And it's like, ah, cool, because of the assessment and the question and the way that we handle that, I'm talking about you and your issues in this. So Score app just basically is the software that allows you to very easily do that. We have AI built in so you can build scorecards in like five minutes And it writes all the content for you We've got all these templates so you can just add your brand and your colors to a template and you've got one of those And it's very affordable. It's like $39 a month
Jen:
It's 50
Daniel:
so
Jen:
bucks US, I mean, no, $50 Australian,
Daniel:
50 bucks Australian.
Jen:
I think.
Daniel:
Yeah.
Jen:
Yeah,
Daniel:
Yeah
Jen:
I've got one. So if anyone wants to go on there, it's the become the go-to fit pro for moms scorecard. So I'll put that in the show notes so you can have a look.
Daniel:
In the show notes
Jen:
Do
Daniel:
check it out
Jen:
you guys do a trial or a education session on that? How does that work?
Daniel:
Yeah, there's a free trial and there is education sessions. So yeah, good for testing out for 30 days, see if it works for you.
Jen:
Yeah, cool.
Daniel:
And Jen, you'll have an actual link in your Score app, which gives people a 30 day free trial. So you
Jen:
Ah,
Daniel:
can,
Jen:
I will grab
Daniel:
so
Jen:
that and make sure that
Daniel:
if
Jen:
goes
Daniel:
you use
Jen:
in.
Daniel:
your link, then that means they'll come through you.
Jen:
Yeah, amazing. Thank you, Dan. I am again, can't reinforce how or can't reinforce how much oversubscribed change the way I ran my fitness business. And even while we were just talking, there's things that I'm doing now in my business that I go, I need to go fix that I need to go relook at that relook at how I'm doing things. Maybe I've got complacent, maybe I'm not creating enough, you know, signaling in the marketplace before asking people to buy so I've taken a lot away from today's conversation. I know people that are listening will have done as well. And thank you so much for making time for us early on your, what day is it? Monday morning. Appreciate it.
Daniel:
My
Jen:
It's
Daniel:
absolute
Jen:
Monday.
Daniel:
pleasure.
Jen:
Thank you so much, Dan. We'll see you soon.
Daniel:
Cheers,
Jen:
Take
Daniel:
bye.
Jen:
care, bye.
