Hello Kate, welcome to the MumSafe Movement podcast. How are you?
Kate Hickey (00:14.036)
Thank you for having me. I'm really good, thank you Jen. Yay.
Jen (00:16.846)
Are you? Good!
question, right? It's like, how are you? Yeah, yeah, I'm good. I'm fine. But we're going to dig into all the things. So it's totally good. Thank you for spending your time and energy with us today. The first thing that I would like to dive in with is share with us a word to share how you're showing up today. Over and above and deeper than how you going something that you're winning out in life and something that you're working on.
Kate Hickey (00:24.82)
Yeah.
And how are you really is the big question.
Kate Hickey (00:36.372)
Pleasure.
Kate Hickey (00:50.292)
Yeah, so my word and full honesty is right now I'm overwhelmed. I feel very overwhelmed. Life is very full for me at the moment. My win is most definitely keeping all of the plates in the air, the biz plates, the family plates, the mum plates, the life.
All of them are spinning, some of them are wobbling, but they're all spinning. And what I'm working on at the moment in my business is better onboarding systems. Just making sure that all of the really vital touch points that are important to me to make sure that I hit for our new members are actually being hit. And there's some systems to make sure that people aren't falling through the cracks or being forgotten about.
reflected in any way in that really crucial first four beats of the time.
Jen (01:43.758)
Yeah, I think that's a part of business that we can easily overlook. It's like we, you know, and onboarding can be pre them signing up with you or like you're talking about post signing up because we signed someone up and everyone's excited. And then it's like, what, what happens now? Are we still excited or do people just drop off? So definitely something a lot of small business owners could reflect on and potentially do better. Nice. I like it. Cool. Kate, tell us.
about a little bit about your journey, about your background and what has brought you to where you are today and the work that you're doing inside of your business.
Kate Hickey (02:22.74)
Yeah, cool. So my original life. So my original life is as a professional dancer and dance teacher. And I just very, very recently retired from teaching only just at the end of the year before last. So 20 year long career in dance, had some experience in marketing and advertising as well, but kind of came back to dance teaching after.
babies because it was far more flexible than when you change your desk in a city office. And during that time, I just started to notice the elite level dancers that I was working with and what their perception of health in the vertical fitness was, and it all related to just running and starving themselves. And so during that period of time, I had started to get excited about fitness and had decided I wanted to do my certificate three. I only ever wanted to be a
body attack instructor. That's that was the extent of my aspirations was I loved attack, I wanted to teach attack. And I thought, you know, maybe I'll just do my cert for, you know, if I'm going to study, I may as well make it work for my while do my cert for and then maybe I can teach a freestyle. That was it. Yeah, I had little kids, you know, and I didn't really have massive career aspirations. I just wanted to do something while I was at home with my kids. So yeah, teaching attack was going to be the thing, you know, we'll talk about the impact of that.
Jen (03:37.87)
I love that.
Kate Hickey (03:51.54)
here. However, yeah, so during that time I became interested in fitness and was doing my cert three and four. The kids at the studio all had this really important idea of what health and fitness looked like for them and so I realized that there was a little gap in fitness offerings for young people, particularly teenagers. And so I created a
Jen (03:51.886)
Jen (04:13.262)
Mm.
Kate Hickey (04:16.788)
Originally it was an online fitness program that supported young teenagers, particularly girls obviously, in learning to move their body, you know, for things outside of weight loss. This was back in the time when the initial bridges and the ashy vines of the world were all so heavily weight loss focused and I knew that there was something else that should be available for young women that helped them to move.
for joy and for strength and for what their bodies would be able to do, not how their bodies would. That ran for quite a few years. It still runs very successfully, but during that time I then started to listen to the conversations that their mothers were having. And the mums were saying things like, she's doomed, we've all got the fat gene, or our family, we're all emotional eaters. And so I realized that my deep -
desire was to change the way that young women felt about their bodies. And I realized that I was never ever going to do that in an hour a week at a group camp down at the park if their moms had this really toxic sort of, you know, what we now know as diet culture language that was happening at home. And so I realized that if I was ever going to change a teenage girl's life, I would have to start with the most influential person in that girl's life and that's her mom. And so...
Jen (05:38.798)
Mm.
Kate Hickey (05:39.988)
That was what then switched me to working with women specifically. So, you know, when do you want to work with women? I think it's performance type coaching. We know and love Nadia's protocol. But then I also realized that, Jen, I know you know the style. Like, what's the percentage of women that exercise that are actually models? It's like 55 % of the population.
Jen (06:04.494)
It's interesting statistic. I'll throw it in there because you put it up there, but it was in 2020. 4 .35 million women use our gyms and fitness facilities in comparison to 3 .5 million men and 77 % of women over the age of 15 in Australia were, you know, our mothers. And so when you turn that into a percentage of the people walking through the doors of a gym, it's 40, I want to say 42 .7 % or 47 .2, 42 .7 % of people using gyms.
and fitness facilities or programs are mothers, they've had babies. So yeah, yep. And then more than 50 % are women, yep.
Kate Hickey (06:38.836)
Yeah, pretty much half. Yeah, yeah. And so then I realized that there was a gap in my knowledge and that if I wanted to train women, I was going to need to understand how to train men. And then that's where you came in, beautiful lady and you, your program and safe return to exercise came at the perfect time because I needed to be able to support women better and therefore becoming educated.
training mums specifically and then you know the rest is history I've been a mum safe trainer for what I think four years.
Jen (07:11.022)
The rest is history.
Jen (07:16.91)
Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Because the brand changed in 2021. So you jumped in before MumSafe or actually, no, we had MumSafe trainers, but we switched to, you know, we got rid of the Body Beyond Baby brand. And it's been a great four years. You're such a beautiful energy and you always bring, look at that smile now, all of the enthusiasm. Kate, I've got a question. So what I heard you say before was you were working with these teenagers in
Kate Hickey (07:38.996)
Yeah.
Jen (07:46.382)
you know, whether it's a training environment, once you develop your program, or before that, when they were just running over eating, sorry, under eating over, over exercising, and I'll say over running, because it's more over running than it is over exercising. How did you avoid that stuff? Or did you avoid that stuff? Like, what's the relationship that you have with your body? Let's go pre kids to begin with, because I know mine was a whole lot of fucked up. And I want to know how you escape that, because I think we're pretty much the same age.
Kate Hickey (08:12.148)
Yes!
Jen (08:15.726)
Or maybe you didn't and there's a journey behind that as well. I don't know.
Kate Hickey (08:19.636)
Yeah, I absolutely didn't. And that is why it was so important to me to make sure that the next generation of young women... No, I don't want to eat a bitch with shit. I felt terrible about myself. I thought I was the fat girl in dance class. I grew up in a, I guess you'd call it a country town, and definitely a much more rural town where really the only thing for girls to do in terms of...
Jen (08:27.246)
Wait, can we, so you didn't escape it or you did escape or you didn't have it? Okay.
Kate Hickey (08:49.108)
exercise was netball or dance. And so I went down the dance route, I freaking loved it. But you know, my body is strong and muscular. And the more I dance, the bigger my muscles got. And the 80s and the 90s, you know, that whole really super thin ideal was what was popular. And then you put that into a dance studio, all of the girls that were the long, the really, you know, biotic looking.
Jen (09:01.774)
Mm.
Kate Hickey (09:15.668)
were the ones that got all the big goals that were in the front row. And so I really, really felt like I didn't fit in and that my body didn't fit the mold of what it should. Team that with the fact that I had all these like little pivotal moments in your life that you look back on, you're like, well, that's where I started to feel very fucked up about myself. One of them was when I was about 14 and...
Jen (09:27.79)
Mm.
Jen (09:39.214)
Yep.
Kate Hickey (09:43.892)
And by that stage I had really good, muscly chords. If somebody had told me that I was built for touch football, I would have felt like a rock star. But all I was doing was dancing. And I remember being in my ballet leotards and my tights, and my dad, aware of German heritage, spray back when, dad following me around the house going, German legs, German legs, K -tip, German legs. Yeah, he thought it was hilarious. And that -
Jen (10:05.55)
my gosh.
Kate Hickey (10:13.428)
for me cemented in my mind right then and there as a 14 year old girl that I was the fat kid. Yeah. I love you dad. Thank you. But that was not a cool moment in my life. And it clouded and it colored every single moment from then onwards. And I can pick these little moments then throughout my dance career where that further cemented in my mind.
Jen (10:18.862)
Fuck.
Jen (10:27.918)
No.
Kate Hickey (10:42.836)
For example, I was in a show where they had a bank of costumes that belonged to the show. And there was only one pair of jeans that fit me. And the back of the jeans was written BG, and that stood for big girl. These are the big girl jeans. And I could only fit the big girl jeans. I became a cheerleader. And my very first costume fitting, we all got our costumes back and we were so excited to put them on. And I put mine on and...
it didn't cover my ass. The skirt they made for me, they didn't look at me, I don't know, I don't know what happened, they did measure me but it came back and it didn't actually cover my butt so my arse cheeks were hanging out the bottom of this skirt and they would be, I know, my arse is well clearly ahead of its time but at the time I was mortified because they had to send my question back and whatever again, I didn't fit.
Jen (11:12.75)
my goodness, they didn't measure you first?
Jen (11:26.542)
Well, that would be fashionable now, like, you know.
Kate Hickey (11:40.084)
the mold, so to speak. And so.
Jen (11:41.998)
And yeah, I just wanna reflect on that for a second because I think that there's still women out there and potentially less likely to be listening. Cause maybe we have a, you know, when you surround yourself with a circle of people that have similar kind of beliefs and we're talking about body shape and size and we're very conscious about the things that we're saying and how we're saying them. But you know, we're talking about something that happened to you 20 years ago.
30 years ago, I won't give everyone away our ages right now, I don't actually give any fucks, but it's still happening, right? Like, and I know that the work you're doing is hugely influential and we'll keep talking about it on the teens and the moms that you work with, but I think this is for me a call out to women and men that are listening and whether it's you using this language or your parents and the messages that are coming from,
things that I said in front of children, young women and young men that completely change the way that they see themselves and feel about themselves and put them on that road of feeling like there's something wrong.
I think a moment to just create more consciousness around what and how we're talking about things.
Kate Hickey (12:59.988)
Yeah, and it's absolutely still happening to me. It's staggering the amount of phone calls that I get from parents who are looking for an exercise program for their teenage daughter because they've gained weight and the parent is worried about it. And so suddenly, you know, this, and I've got, God, I hope that this conversation isn't happening between the parent and the parent.
child but they come to me and they're like you know she's and they're usually between about 12 and 14 which is what's happening then? Fucking puberty is what's happening it's net two. Correct yeah and they say you know I'm just really worried about her because she's gaining weight and she's noticing that her tummy's bigger and you know so I just thought that I would try and find some way to help her and what they mean by help her.
Jen (13:34.478)
Yeah, we're supposed to get a bit. Yeah, bodies are supposed to change. Yeah.
Kate Hickey (13:52.948)
is try and employ some sort of fitness service to fix her. And so all of a sudden this poor girl thinks that her body is a problem that needs to be fixed.
Jen (13:53.198)
It's the loose way.
Jen (14:05.454)
And that conversation could go so differently, couldn't it? It's like, and we need to look at it in other ways. Like is that young woman, has she stopped moving her body? Because that is the concern, not the size or the weight or the shape of her body. So absolutely, if you're concerned that my teenager used to do these things and now she's doing nothing from a health perspective, we need to be moving our bodies. But yeah, it's a huge, huge like.
children of the 80s, women of that like that grew up in that size zero era, that still and I've come a long way and but I battle myself on a you know, on a daily basis around movement food. Can I at least appreciate and respect my body sometimes love it. But we cannot pass these things on to our children at all like it has to stop somewhere. Okay, so
You didn't escape. I wish you had done but you didn't escape. Did you did you ever go to extremes Kate? Like did you do that over under eating over exercising thing or you were more active and you it was more I don't know.
Kate Hickey (15:19.668)
Yeah, look, I think I always, I danced and I loved dance. And so I think I always moved my body for joy. So I hope that's one of my parts.
Jen (15:23.822)
Hmm.
Kate Hickey (15:31.708)
But I definitely did dabble with under -eating, particularly towards the end of high school. I did severely restrict what I was eating quite considerably at that period of time. I just loved food too much, I couldn't stick with it. But then also did, I think I probably spent my whole entire life.
as an adult, not now, but for a really, really long time, very strictly monitoring what I ate. When the MyFitnessPals and the calorie counting apps of the world came in, religiously documenting every single thing I put in my mouth. And now that I think about it, like I hope it's madness, I remember working in like a big advertising agency in the city and being heavily pregnant.
and still like plugging in all the things that I was eating. And I remember a colleague saying to me like, what the fuck are you bothering? And I was like, well, because I'm really scared that I'm gonna gain too much weight during this pregnancy. So I'm just pregnancy. So I'm trying to be really careful with what I eat so that I can, let's all say the words, bounce back after I have my baby. And now that I think about the...
Jen (16:41.902)
Mmm.
Jen (16:48.238)
Yeah.
Kate Hickey (16:54.132)
ludicracy of that is that a word? You know, the ridiculousness of that situation and feeling that pressured to be documenting everything, you know, like how many calories are in a cup of tea? That sort of behavior, it's ridiculous. Should I have one sugar or half a sugar in my tea? Is that gonna set me over my calories? You know, think for the day.
Jen (17:12.302)
I remember.
Jen (17:17.198)
Yeah, I remember scanning the back of fucking rice, rice cracker packets trying to work out which one had the least amount of calories in them. Anyway, let's it's super important conversation. So hopefully people will reflect on this in their own worlds. So you're now running sessions, well, you're running sessions for the teenagers, you've decided that we need to influence.
Kate Hickey (17:24.788)
Yeah!
Jen (17:44.014)
the most influential person in their lives being their mom, if we're gonna have this, you know, a real kind of mindset shift in a, I wanna say culture shift, but I don't know if that's the right word. And you've done safe return to exercise. That was after you had your children. When you did the course, a safe return to exercise is a pre and postnatal certification. I don't know what your birth experiences were like personally. What had you been through? Did you learn anything new about yourself?
what was that kind of process like? I don't know if you did or not.
Kate Hickey (18:17.684)
Yeah, yeah, no, well, first birth was an induction, really long pushing phase. And second birth was the exact opposite and was super duper fast and 20 minute pushing phase. So now knowing what I know, the opposite ends of the spectrum for red flags of public floor instability. And so what was really interesting for me was there was all this retrospective.
Jen (18:24.974)
Mm.
Kate Hickey (18:47.54)
Hang on a minute. So I, particularly with my second pregnancy, did all the second, I guess, postpartum recovery, did all of the wrong things. I ran up till about seven months thinking that that was really good. And then I got back into running. I've never been a runner prior to having kids, but I just decided it was something I wanted to get better at. And then four weeks, I think. I was like, I'm gonna get a jump on.
on my six week clearance, I feel good. Started running at four weeks, ended up with really a bucket body attack pretty much as soon as I had my six week clearance and very, very quickly ended up with really severe back pain. I had a really unstable pelvis, so I had to wear a pelvic stability belt for a very long time after my second pregnancy. I don't know if you could go to...
Jen (19:33.774)
Okay.
Kate Hickey (19:45.588)
running and jumping so much post birth. And then even years later ended up with a number like with pneumonia and had to have a very expensive and uncomfortable surgery. Because from what I now know is I did too much too soon too intensely no checks and it cropped up in all sorts of really uncomfortable.
Jen (20:00.814)
Mm.
Kate Hickey (20:15.572)
and like I said, retrospectively, once I've done so paternal exercise, it's that, huh, okay, so this is why this has happened.
Jen (20:28.322)
So did you think you had a hypertonic pelvic floor going into the first birth?
Kate Hickey (20:36.02)
It's possible.
Jen (20:39.374)
It's a very typical thing of a dancer to have a tighter pelvic floor.
Kate Hickey (20:44.884)
Hmm. Yeah, I had never experienced any symptoms in terms of weakness or leaking or anything fire to kids and in fact still haven't experienced any symptoms. Post kids, it wasn't until I started doing all the crazy in -hat stuff that I started to get real bad pain at them. Then it was identified as pelvic floor instability. It's very possible that I did have a pelvic floor.
Jen (20:56.462)
Mm.
Jen (21:14.126)
Yeah.
Kate Hickey (21:14.836)
It's a bloody hard labor, even with the induction.
Jen (21:19.534)
Well, I mean, an induction can make it make the whole thing worse, right? Like, so the, there's the, you're probably already aware of a thing called a cascade of events. So, you know, you have an induction and then something else is likely to happen and then something else is likely to happen and then something else. So, and I guess this is where, let's say we can only hypothesize that it was a hypertonic pelvic floor. You might argue that it was the induction and nothing to do with a too tight pelvic floor, but this kind of highlights.
and this is probably something that you pass on to your clients now is see a pelvic health physio during pregnancy rather than waiting till afterwards.
Yep. Yep. So you've done SRE, you've kind of started to figure out what is going on with your own body or what has been going on. Tell me was there umbilical hernia? Did that happen? Were you doing strip like heavy strength training alongside your body attack or? Yep. Okay.
Kate Hickey (22:00.628)
definitely.
Kate Hickey (22:17.716)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All of the things. Yeah.
Jen (22:22.83)
Okay cool. Was it painful?
Kate Hickey (22:30.228)
Yes, yeah, it was some, literally where my belly button was, there was a protrusion. The protrusion was sore to touch and also sore during movement. And it actually ended up being quite serious because I left it for so long not knowing what it was that by the time we got to...
Jen (22:36.11)
Mm.
Kate Hickey (22:52.468)
getting to see a specialist, he's like, I need to hook you in for this ASAP, are you free tomorrow? Yeah, didn't tell me why, but then communicated to me after the fact that he was fairly certain that it had been, like apparently it came protrude through and then get strangled, yeah, and that it had actually started to turn sedative. So I could have ended up incredibly sick if we hadn't played the recording.
Jen (22:59.534)
wow.
Jen (23:08.014)
Strangle? Yeah.
Jen (23:19.022)
Yeah and you had quite a large abdominal separation didn't you? I think I've seen a video or you or you had abdominal separation we could see the the peaking or the doming. Yeah.
Kate Hickey (23:26.772)
Yeah, the doming, yeah. So one of my very first brand images that I ever got taken was me doing a great big jump. And yeah, again, retrospectively spotted it, so 2017. Yeah, this huge amount of doming going on. And again, I thought I was great. I thought I was fine. I had no idea that what was going on was anything to do with my doming separation or my public thought and stability.
Jen (23:37.422)
Yeah.
Jen (23:51.566)
Yeah.
Kate Hickey (23:54.26)
We just don't know what we don't know, Jen.
Jen (23:56.206)
We don't, and you know, it's interesting at the moment, Kate, and I don't know if you've thought about this, but I've thought about it a lot, so I'm gonna ask you, is we're kind of, in a lot of spaces, in the pre and postnatal space at the moment, we seem to be pushing more boundaries again, which, you know, there's certain research that's come out to say things like, you know, pregnant women can exercise to a higher intensity, which I think is great. You know, some people are saying abdominal separation doesn't matter. Some people are saying doming doesn't matter. And it's like,
Kate Hickey (24:02.996)
Right, yeah.
Jen (24:26.126)
you know, there's research behind some of it, not research behind other parts. But in my brain, it's I'm watching, you know, reels or people like busting myths and, you know, pregnant women can now do this and postnatal women can now do that. And it's like, yeah, but one, we don't have a lot of research saying that we can. And two, there's a reason why we started to pull back and slow down. And it's really important that we as trainers don't just run with the
green light now we can all do it because there's people like yourself who if we don't take into consideration that person and we don't look look for the signs and the symptoms then they could end up with the umbilical hernias and the pelvic floor stuff and I don't know what do you think because I and if you can openly just say I've not given this any thought at all.
But yeah, like, what do you think, Kate?
Kate Hickey (25:51.156)
Yeah, I think it's really important to encourage our pregnant and our new mothers to rebuild safely from the inside out, no matter where they've been before. Because I guess for someone like me, like I was actually at athlete level of fitness prior to having a baby, strength train, ran all the way through my second pregnancy, I felt fine in my body.
I thought I was fine, but because like I said before, I didn't know what I didn't know.
I didn't realize that some of these things were red flags for what was going to cause me huge amounts of problems later on. And so what is the problem with erring on the side of caution for a short period of time so that you can then go for it once you...
been checked, had an assessment, and then also, I guess, given the green light in terms of stepping through your core strength, your plantar separation, your pelvic floor strength, and having that done hand in hand, you know, with post -medal trainers like us, with women's health physios, so that you can get back to your level of athleticism and you know that you're okay, I guess.
Jen (27:19.758)
Mm.
Kate Hickey (27:20.532)
is what I'm thinking.
assessment transfer.
Kate Hickey (27:29.46)
because there's plenty of people out there that are like me and that think that they're fine and feel fine in their body. But as we know, our women's health physio is our eyes on the inside and we're never gonna know unless we actually know.
Jen (27:43.402)
Couldn't agree with you more. I like it. I wrote down why do we have to push the boundaries and it's something that I say all the time. And I think pushing the boundaries to an extent is good, but not pushing the boundaries because we just want to push the boundaries. And I think the fitness industry sometimes just wants a fucking excuse to push the boundaries and to for pregnant and post -natal women to feel like they're the exception to the rule, which maybe they are, but a lot of people aren't. Kate, I'll go on.
Kate Hickey (28:02.292)
Yeah.
Kate Hickey (28:11.284)
Yeah.
I was just going to say, you know, I think we can, we can flip it as well. And I think one of the things that I love that I've heard you say quite frequently is safe doesn't necessarily mean easy. We're not saying to cotton wool these women, we're not saying that if you're an athlete and you want to be athletic and perform at a level of strength or fitness that is really quite exceptional, we're not saying you can't do those things. We're just saying that, you know, let's treat it like the off season, like you say, and just dial
Jen (28:23.214)
Mm.
Kate Hickey (28:43.462)
back a little bit or change what we're doing we can still be huffy puffy we can still get our heart rate up we can still do really great lifts and great strength training but we do it in a different way so that we are keeping our bodies safe. There's another saying that I really love that is like it's really hard to get from the sidelines. It's really hard to get fit from the sidelines.
Jen (28:57.134)
Yeah, preservation.
Jen (29:02.606)
It's really hard to work, say that again.
Kate Hickey (29:07.284)
I didn't want to be laid up in bed with an umbilical hernia and sent back to being able to do nothing but walk for six weeks straight. Had I just dialed back when I should have, there's a bunch of stuff I could have.
Jen (29:07.47)
Hmm.
Jen (29:20.462)
Yeah, and it's that pregnancy is the off season because I can guarantee that for most women who are almost moms who are short on time, they're not doing those little exercises that they that are going to help them to have a long relationship with exercise without injury. And if we can dial it back in pregnancy and that early postpartum phase or any return to exercise phase to really build those strong foundations, then we can keep doing the things that we love for many, many years. Yeah.
Let's switch focus a little bit, Kate, because I know that you've got quite a bit of a passion around not only the physical side of working with moms and also teenagers, but the energetic side as well. And you and I had this great, I wish I could just play our conversation from yesterday, like back and forth over Messenger, like, this is what's going on for me, this is what's going on for me. And we're both women in business, we're both moms.
and it's a fucking shitstorm sometimes. And I think, I don't know what's happening out there energetically because this is not the only, I mean, you're not the only person I'm having this conversation with, but talk to me about, you know, your business, how you manage your, tell me a little bit more about the demands of your business. So give us an idea about the business that you've created and then let's talk about.
being a mum, holding that business and also holding all the other stuff around that.
Kate Hickey (30:46.932)
Yeah, cool. So my business, we've got sort of three branches that we're working with. So as we said, we've got our teams, we've got what I call our busy working moms, and we've got our newly -presenter moms. So they are delivered predominantly via outdoor bootcamp style of training with one -on -one.
as well. We do also sublet the studio space where I've got a squat rack and some really good solid Olympic lifting equipment. So it's really outdoor group fitness, indoor group fitness and personal training. At the moment, I have two contractors working for me. One is a fellow Mumsafe coach, Julie, who is currently on maternity leave. So at the moment, I'm probably on the tools for about
Jen (31:32.142)
I'm gonna go to bed.
Kate Hickey (31:37.798)
20 sessions a week, which is probably a bit too much for me right now, as well as then all of the admin that comes with running the business. We're sitting just under 100 members at the moment, which is awesome. That's my big goal is to crack 100.
And so, yes, the demands of supporting 100 women and teens within my community as well as 50 % of my time, probably more because we do mobile community as well, is spent on the tools. I feel like at the moment, there's the same I heard the other day, which is working in the crowd.
as entrepreneurial women, we find ourselves working in the class. We're cooking breakfast for the kids and we're answering messages or we're trying to really quickly fire off a couple of emails at school pick up or trying to conversely then sit in the car and do a couple of quick kids appointments before we jump into a session. And so definitely for me at the moment, I'm feeling like...
Jen (32:25.134)
Hmm.
Kate Hickey (32:46.1)
don't get enough time to just sit and be able to really sink my teeth into anything really big and minty in my business, which is probably why this onboarding process systems is taking so long to implement, because I'm playing, I feel like I'm playing triage with the most urgent tasks in my business constantly. So it's only ever, the fires that are getting put out rather than being able to sit back and go.
Jen (32:54.574)
Mm.
Kate Hickey (33:16.564)
best serve the women in my community and what would that look like? Does that answer your question?
Jen (33:21.71)
Yeah. Yeah, it does. I think it gives a really good picture of what a lot of women listening are going through, whether they are female business, like personal trainers running businesses or whether they're moms that are working or even, you know, moms that are not working because yeah, it's, it's, if you're a stay at home mom who's looking after the kids and you've got toddlers running around, you're
probably working in the cracks of trying to deal with toddlers. And it's very hard, isn't it, to focus? Like I was reflecting the other day, and I want to say this with love and respect for what my husband does. And he goes out to work and, you know, he contributes more than I do to the family income right at the moment. So there's this element of gratitude and fucking resentment for the fact that he gets to leave the house and concentrate on his job for six or seven hours a day.
and I don't get to do that whilst then having this gratitude for the fact that I get to rearrange my day around what my children need and the things that we need to do. And it's such a head fuck around gratitude, resentment, gratitude, resentment, more gratitude, but then pissed, I don't know, okay, what do you think?
Kate Hickey (34:39.7)
Yeah, I'm 1000 %
on the same page as you, like exactly the same situation. Husband that does contribute more financially than I do. Husband that travels at the moment, a ridiculous amount. I think that part of our conversation yesterday was like, Jen, I need to give you some context. Shit has hit the fan here at home and now my husband is traveling every single week for the next 12 weeks, two days, one week, three days the next, and I'm drowning.
Jen (34:45.07)
UGH!
Jen (34:56.27)
Mmm.
Kate Hickey (35:12.052)
And so yeah, I do feel, you know, and credit to him when this season emerged, he said, I'm not going anywhere and I'm not doing anything until we can make sure that you are supported as much as possible. He runs his own business. He said, work's gonna pay for a babysitter to be able to help you. Cause it's just, it's humanly impossible for us to be able to manage what's going on with the kids without it being a two person, often three person job. Cause we have help.
Jen (35:34.478)
Mm.
Kate Hickey (35:41.716)
and was as well. So whilst he's absolutely investing in making sure that we're okay here, there's just, when you're not here, you're not here. Like I was saying to you.
before like it's cropped up, you know, I've got one kid that does a bit of acting and so all of a sudden it's cropped up that this kid has an audition and so it's 9 .30 at night last night and I'm trying to film a child on my kitchen table screaming trying to act out a scene that I then have to upload at 10 o 'clock at night, you know, and none of that was stuff that we had for scene at the beginning of the week when my husband's gone, okay, what have we got coming out? What can I support you with from afar? So, you know, when you are the primary.
Jen (36:18.574)
Yeah.
Kate Hickey (36:23.732)
person, this shit just crops up all the time that you have to deal with. And it's like, all of it is really easy to manage in silo. But then it all comes at the same time. And then all of a sudden, you know, we really fucking know.
Jen (36:38.67)
and there's that one thing that cracks you, right? That one last thing, like, I don't know, you drop a cup or you do something stupid and it's like, that is really not a big deal, but it is today. Kate, you talked before about the terrible 10. And I think that's a really good, yeah, segue into that from what we're talking about. Tell us about that.
Kate Hickey (36:41.14)
Yeah.
Kate Hickey (36:48.276)
Yup.
Kate Hickey (36:53.044)
Yeah
Kate Hickey (37:00.5)
Yeah, so I mean, I guess this isn't the first time that I've been in this particular busy season and the very first time it happened, we didn't know what the pressure of basically being.
Jen (37:06.478)
Mm -hmm.
Kate Hickey (37:14.036)
a single parent would be like, I guess a single parent that has taken on the stuff that two parents should be able to manage and then all of a sudden find yourself single parenting. And so, you know, he was traveling, he traveled 11 out of 13 weeks, was only ever home on weekends, was gone all week. I was trying to manage my business. I had a preschooler that I had to cart around with me everywhere and a kid in primary school. And so I was dragging my poor children out of bed at five o 'clock in the morning and pulling them to sessions.
with me and all of the things. And so what ended up happening was I ended up having panic attacks and anxiety and it was just, it was really shit. And so what I kind of learned though was then I sort of created this framework that I support the women in our community with to be able to get to the real heart of like, what actually is it that is causing the pressure? Because like you said, it's not the broken heart. It's not the one.
that you need to make, there's always a bunch of stuff going on. And so if we can identify what those energy drains are, then we can actually start to plug the holes because no amount of baths or yoga classes or facials are ever going to refill your cup if there's something that's poking dirty big fucking holes in the bottom and it's all leaking out. So my terrible 10 that I have uncovered that are usually the biggest culprits for draining women's energy are,
Jen (38:34.862)
Hmm.
Kate Hickey (38:44.564)
Poor quality sleep, not only lack of sleep, but poor quality sleep. Too much time on devices. So whether that's working or doom scrolling device time, accumulatively as well, right? Poor nutrition, alcohol, a lot of women tend to soothe with booze. Over or under training.
we can, you know, we are fitness professionals and if we're blessed enough to have the time, sometimes we can turn to the gym to be our outlet, which can become unhealthy as well. Toxic people or relationships, people in your life that might be draining your energy. This is one that we're all guilty of as not setting boundaries for our own time and our own energy and taking on a bit too much. Inadequate rest and recovery.
Jen (39:24.142)
Mmm.
Kate Hickey (39:40.308)
So not to be confused with sleep, but inadequate recovery. Your mindset and your beliefs can have a huge drain on your energy. And an overloaded to -do list and what I love to lovingly refer to, which is a phrase coined from Dr. Libby Weaver is the rush of rushing. We can be addicted. The rush of rushing, yeah, we can be addicted.
Jen (40:03.022)
The Russia brushing.
Kate Hickey (40:08.884)
to the feeling that we get when we're really busy. And I even noticed myself doing it a couple of nights ago, like I'd had this ridiculously busy day and all this stuff had cropped up and I'd handled it all. And I was driving home and I was like, yes, I am fucking nailing this. And it was that adrenaline rush of actually ticking off all of the things and feeling really successful. But you can then, you know, that's a neural pathway that your body and your brain can become addicted to.
Jen (40:25.614)
Huh.
Jen (40:35.31)
Mmm.
Kate Hickey (40:37.748)
And so get that little squirt of dopamine and adrenaline from ticking boxes and doing things and then perhaps self -sabotage by overloading your schedule to kind of recreate that feeling of success, whereas maybe you're not actually been successful, maybe you're just busy.
Jen (40:53.678)
Yeah, and then not recovering from that. Because that takes a lot to kind of come down from.
Kate Hickey (41:02.004)
Sure does.
Jen (41:02.894)
Yeah. Kate, what would you say your top three of those is that you need to be most aware of?
Kate Hickey (41:09.3)
Yeah, 1000 % overloading my to -do list and the rush of rushing. I identified a long time ago that one of my biggest self -sabotages is believing that being busy equates to feeling successful. And so even as a youngster, I would crowd out my schedule. I wanted to do all of the things and I wanted to find activities to do on a Sunday and mom would be going.
Jen (41:21.55)
Mmm.
Kate Hickey (41:38.261)
God sakes, there actually isn't any more days left in the week to do stuff. I'm like, yes, seriously, can't I do gymnastics on a Sunday? She's like, no. And I've definitely identified that that's something that I still do today. As soon as I have a spare spot, I fill it up with something.
Jen (41:58.35)
Yeah. So is there any other ones that are key for you?
Kate Hickey (42:02.58)
Okay, so definitely the to do list.
say boundaries. Yeah, not having great boundaries and I get those two kind of go hand in hand, right? Because for example, you know, I was talking about the PT client who I love and adore and who I probably should have said no to, but I found a little slot for her because I really wanted to support her with her journey. And so I took on yet another client when I really shouldn't have. So those are my two big ones.
Jen (42:11.598)
boundaries.
Jen (42:27.63)
Mmm.
Jen (42:36.558)
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. I think I've gone through this phase of getting so bound read that I just don't see anyone anymore. And I've had to, because I'm all my, none of my work is like in person unless I travel to work and even.
Yeah, it's funny what you're saying about boundaries. I feel like I over the last few years have gone the complete opposite way. And even this year, I've gone through my calendar and gone through all of the commitments that I have and gone, what do I need to get rid of and opt out of? And then it's funny coming out of the other side of that. I'm now going, maybe I have space for a catch up or space for other things. So it's...
It's a really interesting, I had this revelation, I was at a retreat a couple of weeks ago and Kate, you know me, like I love to be around people, but I'm like, I gotta get me out of there, like I can't and you know, we've seen each other mostly at a mum safe retreat environment, but in another person's environment, I'm quiet, I think sometimes I come off as standoffish and I think that's the introversion or introvert side of me that's just like, can't deal with it.
This time I've been on this same retreat now for three or four years and it was the first year I actually felt energized by talking to people. One, because I was in a comfort zone because I knew more people, but two, I think it's a big reflection on taking stuff out of my life so that I can then start to cope with more. So that's been quite an interesting, interesting when I reflect on your terrible 10, like what am I doing from a boundaries perspective?
Sleep is a massive one for me. Yeah, interesting.
Jen (45:16.942)
Kate, tell me about you also shared and I know that I'm hoping, I think I clarified that it was okay to share. You're going, so you've gone through like teenage hood, you've gone through becoming a mom, you know, you've got, your kids are getting a little bit older and now we approach things like perimenopause and menopause and you've got your own journey going on around that at the moment. Can you share that with us? Just to add something else for you to deal with. Yeah.
Kate Hickey (45:26.004)
share all the things.
Kate Hickey (45:41.108)
Yeah, so, just, yeah, I know, like, there's this, I love quotes, you might have discovered that already, but one of my favorite ones is like, the God or the universe only gives you what he thinks you can handle, and right now, God must be kind of fucking badass.
Because right when I thought that there wasn't any more things to load onto my plate, I have found myself in early menopause. I believe the medical diagnosis is primary ovarian insufficiency. So not only is it a kick to the ovaries, literally, the label says that the moment my, yeah, my body is insufficient.
Jen (46:04.654)
Mm.
Jen (46:18.702)
You're not good enough. Yeah, you're insufficient. You know what, people in the medical industry like geriatric pregnancies, like people need to work on their language in the medical industry. Anyway, carry on. Yeah.
Kate Hickey (46:45.556)
that's right. my God, don't they ever, like particularly the other one I find really hurtful, especially because mothers are just naturally having children a lot older, is the geriatric pregnancy. Why is it women over 35 are considered to be geriatric mothers?
Jen (47:02.35)
Mm. Yep.
Kate Hickey (47:05.012)
Yeah, if they're not already feeling shit about themselves for their choices, yeah, they go ahead and be called a geriatric partner. Anyway, yes. So my ovaries are insufficient and I'm happy to share my age. So at 42, I have found myself in full -blown menopause. So I'm dealing with some shitty symptoms. Predominantly, at the moment, those symptoms are definitely hot flushes.
Jen (47:28.622)
Mm.
Kate Hickey (47:34.9)
and that period has gone altogether. That was kind of one of the big red flags that made me wonder what the heck was going on. And I thought it was just stress. Like it was already a really busy season. So a missing period wasn't enough of a red flag. I just kind of went, okay, I'm really stressed. And then when the hot flashes started, that was when I kind of started to think, okay, this isn't right. I'm very, very fortunate that one of my clients...
Jen (47:42.766)
Mm.
Kate Hickey (47:58.9)
is an endocrinologist and so the poor lady, like I got down on the floor next to her when she was doing sit -ups in one of my classes and I was like, hey, can I ask you some endo questions? And she's like, yeah, what? And I said, I've got hot flushes and my period's gone, what should I do? And she keeps on going to her test, which is what you should do. And then, yeah, it was very, very kind of her to review those by test for me. And thank you.
some advice and yet turns out no estrogen in my system undetected and I am in full blown menopause. So the big challenge for me around that apart from managing symptoms is I actually feel like it's a little bit similar to what...
Jen (48:25.454)
Hmm.
Kate Hickey (48:39.86)
postnatal nuns experience in the sense that like your body is not your own and it is doing things that you don't fucking want it to do, you didn't ask it to do and that you cannot control.
Jen (48:44.398)
Hmm.
Kate Hickey (48:54.132)
And that can be really confronting. And for me, it is really confronting. I'm jostling with this whole, like, my body has failed me versus, like, this isn't the end of the frigging world. It could be breast cancer. It could be ovarian cancer. It's just fucking metaphors. And there's ways to manage that. But yeah, it's that whole battling of, you know, my body's not my friend anymore.
Jen (49:04.782)
Mm.
Jen (49:18.734)
Do you think though that that, I mean, first up, I wanna acknowledge that that's what you're going through, cause it's big. And do you think that part of that feeling is because as women, we are very under educated about our bodies. So, you know, you might feel that as a teenager when you get your period for the first time and you're like, what the fuck is my body doing? It's less of an impact, I think from.
most people depending on the age that you get your period. I was 16 so I was like, I was like fine. You know, people at 13 it's like, fuck what is going on? But even back to being teenagers, unless you've got a parent, a mother, you know, some other influential or trusted female, most likely in your life, no one's really educating you about your body when you start to have your period. Then the next time we go through that is in pregnancy. So we're not,
educated in pregnancy about how our body's changing. We're educated about how our body's changing to grow a baby sizes of babies, watermelons, whatever else they use as analogies. But we come out of pregnancy, we have our babies and like I just heard you say, it's the same feeling because but we do we only have that feeling because no one told us what to expect.
And then the same now for you going through early menopause is no one said to you, this is what happens as a female as you get older, as standard education that we have a right to learn and we lose our power because at these stages of our lives, we significantly change mentally, emotionally, physically, and we're just fucking kept in the dark about the whole thing.
Kate Hickey (50:42.1)
Yeah!
Kate Hickey (51:09.556)
Yeah, totally. And like on the postnatal changes, I remember saying to my mom, like, why didn't you fucking tell me it would be like this? And she said, I didn't want to ruin the experience for you and I didn't want you to be, she said, I didn't want you to be scared, I think. Or something like I didn't want to spoil it for you, something like that. Like basically say, yeah, like, yeah.
Jen (51:35.054)
Spoil it! Fuck me!
Kate Hickey (51:38.612)
I think it was something to the effect of like, I wanted you to be excited about having a baby and I didn't want you to be apprehensive about what was coming. So I felt like it was better to just not tell you until you were going through it and you needed to know, so to speak. Yeah.
Jen (51:50.478)
So how do you think we get around that? So I get it, I get it, right? So we've got people don't wanna tell women because they don't wanna scare them. And I do understand that sentiment and I understand where your mom's coming from and all those things. And we don't, women don't need scaring by other women's birth stories. However, however, we need to find a way to inform women at every stage of their life about their body, about what can happen.
Kate Hickey (52:08.404)
Yeah.
Jen (52:19.374)
good and bad, even though they're shit words, but optimal and non -optimal, however you wanna say it, in a way that she is empowered, whatever the outcome is. How would you, like, when should we be giving people this information in your opinion? Like, so whether it's from, I mean, you work with teenagers, so how should we be better informing them when in pregnancy, or should it be before we're pregnant that we should be getting this information? And then, you know, from a menopause perspective,
Kate Hickey (52:29.524)
Yeah.
Jen (52:49.198)
How would you like to receive it and when?
Kate Hickey (52:52.116)
Yeah, it's such a great question, right? And I think as somebody who is basically has gone through going through or has gone through menopause a full decade sooner than I should, I think that for me, there was probably a lot of intended ignorance around menopause because I was just like, that's not for me. That's not going to happen to me for such a long time.
Jen (53:05.134)
Mm.
Kate Hickey (53:18.548)
I don't need to know about it, I don't need to worry about it. And so it was only when it was thrust upon me that I then realized that fuck, I don't know anything about this. I don't think that, I know very little. Yeah.
Jen (53:29.486)
But isn't that the fundamental problem, right? Yeah, but what I just heard you say was intended ignorance. So you didn't go searching for the information. I think what I'm trying to say is women shouldn't have to fucking need to search for information. Like what are the main markers in the lives of women, of females or I don't, people that have female, are born with female body, like hormones, bodies, genitalia. We shouldn't have to.
Kate Hickey (53:43.444)
Yeah.
Jen (53:58.126)
search for information at these points. We should be provided with this information at certain touch points in our lives.
Kate Hickey (54:41.396)
Yeah, that's a really interesting question because yes, I totally agree that we should be given it. But you know, like how much is too much? When is the right time? You know, yeah, like when should we be educating women about coming out of floors? I guess it should really be starting to happen in our 30s, shouldn't it? So that we can be...
Jen (54:52.59)
Hmm.
Kate Hickey (55:07.124)
Forewarned is forearmed, is one of the better phrase. So we do know what to expect and so we know what's coming, but then yeah, how does that information deliver? Whose responsibility is it to deliver? Is it just a shifting of community mindedness so that other women don't feel like they are imposing or spoiling the experience by being open and honest about what is coming for other women?
Jen (55:17.614)
Yeah.
Jen (55:36.206)
Mm. It's yeah, it is it. I mean, we don't really have that kind of pass down of information from like, so a lot of other cultures have, this is what happens in this phase. This is what happens in this phase. And I think the Western world doesn't have that. So we're not learning from our from our mothers and from our grandmothers. Although I think that I do think again, in the Western world, like a lot of their experience has been shut down as a woman. So
they wouldn't talk about it anyway. And then my brain goes to, surely we're collecting enough health data that the government could send you a email on your 35th birthday that says, hey, go visit this portal or go visit this. Like we get reminders about pap tests and we get reminders about all sorts of different things. Like why is, and it's the same about six week checkups and postpartum health and all those, like why are we, do we still not hit these really obvious health?
markers for specifically now we're talking about women and giving them the information that they need every step of the way from a non -scary perspective. Maybe we need to sit on this conversation. It'd be interesting if anyone's listening has opinions on this, like message me, message Kate, tell us what you think. Yeah, yeah. Kate, tell me what's the future? I know you're working on onboarding, but what's the big vision for you and your business in the next?
Kate Hickey (56:49.012)
Yeah, please do.
Jen (56:59.47)
I don't know how far out you like to think six months, 12 months, five years. What's the big? I'm getting out there. I'm doing it. What are we doing?
Kate Hickey (57:03.732)
Did you see my face just light up there? Yeah, so my big vision is a studio space. I think that there is so few female -only training facilities out there. And I think Fernwood started to do a really good job of it. But I think, and it's absolutely no...
no criticism of that particular facility, but in terms of a space where we are training women for women's bodies, for the unique female physiology and winding in and weaving in all of those female specific practices.
Jen (57:43.662)
Hmm.
Kate Hickey (57:51.124)
practices so that women are not only do they just have, for want of a better term, just a room full of equipment where only chicks can go, that it is a space where women and teens and mums and the menopausal ladies can go and feel seen and feel heard and know that they're going to get access to training, information, support that is specifically for
Jen (58:01.198)
Mm.
Kate Hickey (58:20.5)
then.
Jen (58:21.486)
Yeah, and you know what I just one of the things that I heard you say there was not only a place they can go that only women can go because I think there's a lot of female only environments. But unfortunately, there's not a lot of fame or there's not enough female only environments with all the information that they need to actually support women properly. And then and this might be completely off what you're thinking. But given the conversation that we've just had, imagine holding spaces where you bring
different generations of women together to have conversations about periods and about pregnancy and in a way that's delivered in a non -scary way passed down from generations. Like how cool would that be? Like to once a month on the full moon, do like a women's, like a generation. Well, yeah, but, and then have that kind of spin on it. It's like, what are we passing down through the generations? What do I wish?
Kate Hickey (59:06.356)
Yeah, a women's circle. Yeah.
Jen (59:17.806)
my daughter knew what do I wish, what would I like to learn from my mom and they don't even have to be actually your mom and your grandmother and your daughter, but bringing different generations of women. Anyway, I don't know if that's even a thing that you'd want to do, but I think it's cool. I would come.
Kate Hickey (59:35.124)
totally as well and I think you know I'm just kind of in the back of my mind then I was sort of I was remembering there's been experiences at training because because I do train lots of different age groups what I find what I find happens is that the new mums you know they all train at Mums and Bugs at about 9 .30 at the 9 .30 a classes and then when they go back to work they usually in inverted commas graduate.
to the early morning and the evening classes and then they're training with women who are at a different phase of life to them and what I find is there's often lots of conversations of sharing of information and guidance around parenting but none yet.
Jen (01:00:17.582)
Ha ha ha, don't we all need that?
Kate Hickey (01:00:20.82)
Yeah, well, yeah, we do. But yeah, there's lots of wisdom and sharing that happens between the two different groups, but then obviously become one group around parenting of different ages and stages. But there isn't really any or too much open and frank conversation about, you know, about what's going to happen with their bodies.
Jen (01:00:40.398)
How's your body changing?
Kate Hickey (01:00:40.98)
other than the occasional, you know, like, just do you wait or, you know, something that's, you know, this is without saying what's coming, just going, you know, that that's hard, like, this is what's happening next or whatever, but more just around, I've just kind of lost my train of thought there.
Jen (01:00:45.07)
Yeah.
Jen (01:00:56.142)
Hmm.
No, I think it's what we were... or what...
Kate Hickey (01:01:00.884)
Yeah, lots of conversations around parenting and how to support the different phases of parenting, but not a lot of conversations around how to support the different phases of life as a female.
Jen (01:01:11.898)
Yeah, there's a big space for that I think. Kate, to start to wrap us up, if people want to find you and what you're doing in the world, where's the best place for them to do that?
Kate Hickey (01:01:23.06)
Yeah, come and find me on any of my socials. I am Empower360 Fitness on the Instagrams and the Facebooks of the world. Please feel free to slide into my DMs if you haven't noticed. I love a chat. Very, very happy to talk or answer any questions that anybody has.
Jen (01:01:38.318)
Hahaha!
Jen (01:01:44.302)
And I don't think we said this at the beginning, but where location -wise are you if someone wants to come and see you in real life human person?
Kate Hickey (01:01:52.5)
IRL. We are in Gladesville and Putney, which is the, I guess you'd call it the lower North shore of Sydney.
Jen (01:02:01.326)
Mm hmm. Cool. And last question, if you could see any change in the world or you would leave your stamp on the world at the end of your journey or your career, what or your life? I don't know how big you want to take this question. And what what would it be?
Kate Hickey (01:02:19.732)
that women could know and understand that movement is a joy and a privilege and not something to do to make ourselves smaller, but something to do to make ourselves happier.
Jen (01:02:32.11)
And that was like that landed immediately. You didn't take a second to think about that shit. That is in your soul. Yeah, I love it. I love it. I love it. Kate, thank you so much for spending time with me today. Thank you for juggling your room and your lights and your everything that we did before we got on the actual podcast. Yeah. And making space because I know that.
Kate Hickey (01:02:34.612)
No, I just... No, not even... Don't even need to think about it. Yes, it really, really is.
Kate Hickey (01:02:50.804)
Roll the plates!
Jen (01:02:56.526)
You know, life is busy for you right now and you could have easily just gone, Jen, I just don't have time. So I appreciate you. I appreciate the work you're doing in the world, the energy that you bring to the Mumsafe team and the fact that you've made time for us to chat about your journey today. Thank you.
Kate Hickey (01:03:12.66)
These are the conversations that are vital, right? We just talked about how important it is to have conversations and I think for women and for mums and for business owners, we don't often talk enough about how fucking hard it can be, right? We all try and put it out there to the world that I'm doing amazing and I can cope and that my business is amazing and I'm nailing parenting and more often than not, the reality is that we are all.
Jen (01:03:15.854)
Hmm.
Kate Hickey (01:03:40.628)
drowning a little bit in one way or another and that that's okay.
Jen (01:03:45.422)
Yeah. And I think as well when, you know, we've not delved into all of the business stuff today and I didn't necessarily want to because I think you've got so much goodness to bring in, in all of the other spaces, but to go, it can be hard and you can do it, especially when you're supported with the right people, whether that's family or, you know, your clients or, you know, what, what we hold inside of mom safe. So, thank you for sharing your wisdom today, Kate.
Take care.
Kate Hickey (01:04:13.78)
Cheers.
